CMCL Interview: Jennifer Dewees

Julie Sowash:
Welcome back to the Changing Minds, Changing Lives podcast. My name is Julie Sowash. I am the strategic advisor and founder of Disability Solutions and the CEO of Catch 22 Group. We're so excited to have you all back. Before we get started today, I want to just call out the last episode, depending on where you are in your listening track. A couple weeks ago, we had a Changing Minds, Changing Lives takeover with a former guest Grant Harris, who, if you haven't listened to his episode, definitely go take a listen. And he actually brought some guests on with him. Two guest hosts. And he had a conversation that I think is so worth a listen and is actually gonna converge with the conversation we have today. But really, the conversation covered neurodivergency in communities of color. Titling the episode, “Seen, But Not Heard.” It's really powerful. And the work that Grant does, and the way that he talks about his disability and disability in communities of color is so thought provoking and so worth our time. So definitely go check out the takeover from June 17, 2025. And, you know, just before we got started again today we actually have our episode being sponsored, which is so exciting. It’s our first sponsored episode. And we are in partnership with the Maryland Center for Construction Education & Innovation, known as MCCEI. And it’s an independent workforce intermediary providing opportunities and resources designed to uplift and support individuals from all backgrounds in built environment careers. And not many of you know this, but my dad, Greg, was a crane operator on some of the skyscrapers that we now see dotting the skyline in Indianapolis, where I’m from. And then he went on to be a part of the local labor union supporting heavy equipment operators. He taught me the value that labor brings to our communities and how strongly built workforce programs can not just built amazing pipelines of talent, but also provide talented young people with long and successful careers in the trades. So with that being said, I'm so excited to introduce our guest today, Jennifer Dewees. Jennifer is a nonprofit construction workforce development leader, DEI advocate, and thought leader in workforce development and built environment spaces. She is the president of MCCEI, co-founder and construction lead of Maryland's Apprenticeship Connector. She has been recognized as a Daily Record Top 100 in Maryland, BBJ’s Women Who Mean Business. I love that. Construction and Dive’s Top 33 Women in Construction and Crew Baltimore's Women of Influence, wow, and has been featured in multiple media publications. She’s dedicated to expanding apprenticeships, connecting jobseekers with industry leaders, and strengthening Maryland’s talent pipeline. Whew! And she just got back from Paris. Welcome to Changing Minds, Changing Lives, Jennifer.

Jennifer Dewees:
Thank you for having me.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah, thank you so much. So, tell us a little bit about all of those words that I just said. What does that mean? What does MCCEI do and how does it help develop those incredible talent pipelines we were talking about?

Jennifer Dewees:
So, at MCCEI our mission is to connect and educate a diverse population to careers in the built environment. And when we say built environment, it’s anything manmade. So, it could be architecture engineering, construction management and the skilled trades. Because you may  or may not be aware, but by 2030, 40% of our current construction workforce will retire. And only one person is coming in for every four that retire into the industry. We have seen a swing, an upswing, when it comes to Gen Z and their interest in skilled trades and construction industry in general. But we are definitely about to hit a workforce cliff. And it is coming, fastly approaching. So, we have been working on this for the last 15 years at MCCEI and we’ve made a lot of major progress. And Maryland is doing some really amazing things to support alternative pathways to success for its students and career seekers. We have a long way to go.

Julie Sowash:
[laughs] As the story of our life, right? There's always more work to be done. And, I mean, I think that's just incredible. You know, as someone who lives in Europe at least part of the year, I can see here, in our workforce development, how important apprenticeships are, especially through the trades, skilled labor, construction, all of those things. And yet, I think, as Americans, we don’t see or talk about the importance of apprenticeships, journeymen, those kind of actual pathways into careers nearly as often as we talk about the importance of having a college diploma, a college degree. Can you tell me a little bit more about how you’ve built apprenticeship programs, and what kind of an impact do they make on your local community?

Jennifer Dewees:
Yeah, so we’re really lucky here in Maryland in that the state government and education system is aligned in realizing that college is not for everyone. And that is not to say that college is not a valuable pathway. We absolutely believe in college. In fact, there are a lot of built environment careers in which you need to go to college. You need to go to college to be an engineer and an architect and a lot in construction management as well. But there are pathways that have both, right? An apprenticeship program, especially in Maryland, but many, most states also include college credit. A lot of our community colleges here have apprenticeships. And a lot of our apprenticeship providers, like unions and associated builders and contractors, include college credit. So, it’s not an either/or option. It’s an and. And if you can get your employer to pay for your school, which is what an apprenticeship program is, I mean, it’s a no-brainer. to me. And I wish it’s something that somebody had mentioned to me when I was in school because, I don’t know about you, but it took me 20 years to pay off my college loans. And it took me a very long time to get to the salary that apprentices are getting to. So here in Maryland, we have what’s called the Blueprint for Maryland’s Future. And it is an initiative around revamping Maryland’s higher education and K-12 school system. And one of the pillars is around college and career readiness. And it says that by 2031, 45% of graduating seniors will have received an industry-recognized credential and/or participated in the youth portion of a registered apprenticeship program. And so, in Maryland, that means that you can start your adult registered apprenticeship while you’re still in high school. Many people may not realize that a lot of high school seniors don’t have a full course load anymore when they’ve, their last year. They’re even, you know, they’re working half, they’re going half days, basically. And we’ve been really lucky in that school systems are motivated to get these  kids working and to get them that experience. And we’re seeing employers that are really embracing that. And unions and other apprenticeship programs are doing that. So kids are starting off at, you know, usually that summer between senior, junior and senior year as apprentices with, like, their local union or Electrical Alliance or something like that. And making good money. And starting that four-year journey towards their journey worker’s license. And finishing up. We’ve seen some apprenticeship programs. The average age of an apprentice in the United States of America is 30. Think about it. That’s 12 years of lost time from when you graduate from high school. And now, we have programs in Maryland that the average age has dropped to 24 years old because of this increased push towards having teenagers. And there’s a misconception, too, that you can’t hire somebody under the age of 18 for a construction job because of the hazards, but that is actually incorrect, as long as they’re in an apprenticeship program. So we’ve seen a really great success. We have kids that are, you know, 22 years old and buying their first home and trucks. And I was much, much older when I did all of that. And, I guess, but let me back up for a second and explain exactly what an apprenticeship program is.

Julie Sowash:
Ok.

Jennifer Dewees:
Because even in the construction industry, there’s a misconception. We have more apprenticeship programs than any other industry out there, but still the industry doesn’t 100% understand. It’s similar to a trade school in which you’re learning, you know, learning a trade. But the difference between a trade school and an apprenticeship program, in a trade school, there’s a tuition, just like college, that you’re paying. You’re usually paying a for-profit institute to train you in a trade. And there’s nothing wrong with that, right?

Julie Sowash:
Ok.

Jennifer Dewees:
But an apprenticeship program, it is a state registered program usually. In Maryland, here, the state of Maryland has a registered program that they take the curriculum. They make sure that it’s industry recognized. It is taught by a third party, so either a union hall, like, they’re called JATCs. Or a community college or an employer could be the curriculum provider. The curriculum is provided to the apprentice completely free of charge. There’s no, and there’s no debt either. If you quit your job tomorrow, oh, and forgot to mention that part. You’re fully employed while you’re going through it. So, basically, you get the the full time employment. And you either go to class. Like, sometimes, depending on the organization, maybe you take a day out of the week to go to class, to do your classroom portion of learning. Or it’s a nighttime class. Or it’s on the weekend. It all depends on how the program’s working. But if you decide it’s not for you anymore and you quit, you don’t owe anybody any money either. I mean it’s really a win-win for the apprentices. And the cool part about an apprenticeship program is as you advance in your program, your pay increases too. You have full benefits. We heard recently that from IBEW, that’s the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, somebody that finishes in their apprenticeship program, will have earned $300,000 in the lifetime of their apprenticeship program.

Julie Sowash:
Wow.

Jennifer Dewees:
How much money does it cost to go to college?

Julie Sowash:
Yes.

Jennifer Dewees:
There’s literally no debt. I mean, it’s just, it’s kind of crazy to think that you’re 22 years old and you’ve had that, amassed that amount of money. So, it really is the wave of the future. There’s been a ton of research and energy in the States, the United States, going into Europe and seeing how the European model, the Swiss, for example, they have an amazing apprenticeship program and system over there that we are trying to emulate here in America. And it seems to be working.

Julie Sowash
Amazing, amazing. So, you gave me a couple of pieces of education there. One is that there are opportunities for higher education, along with learning a trade and an apprenticeship at the same time, which I think is truly incredible. But the other piece that really blew me away is the lack of debt. I, like you, just got done paying for that lovely college education that I got. Well more than I paid for it after all those loans got paid for. You know, and I think that’s really exciting because in America, again, we have and I don’t know if it started with me, as, like, Gen X, or my generation is Gen X, where it was like all of a sudden not going into trades or construction or labor became uncool. It became, like, kind of a less than sort of way that we looked at people. But I think we have an entire generation of adults that really missed out on opportunities because all of the sudden the line that we were being told is the only thing that mattered was that four-year degree. 

Jennifer Dewees:
100%. So, interestingly, I was part of a cohort funded by the Harbor Freight Leadership Lab. And they did some research, like, where did this change happen? And it actually happened under the Reagan administration. There was a report called, “A Nation at Risk.” And it talked about our education system. And it’s funny because I grew up in the ‘80s, right? And, you know, and I remember my family talking about how we weren’t keeping up as a country with, like, Japan and Germany when it came to math at schools. And I remember that. Like, that was the narrative of my childhood, was we had to go to college. We had to keep up in the global scale of the economy. And as such, you’re right. We stopped funding shop classes and CTE and everything like that as a country. And now, we’re seeing a swing back. I think, you know, the rubber band

was pulled too far. And now, we’re hopefully getting back to a happy medium and realizing without a skilled workforce, our country is literally going to crumble. And honestly, the skilled workforce never went away. It just wasn’t talked about. We’ve obviously saw of people in the construction industry. We have a major deficit when it comes to, we have, like, 600,000 open positions in the United States of America right now in the construction industry. It is, during COVID, we saw it was an essential workforce. People didn’t lose jobs in the construction industry, because we didn’t stop working. It is essential. Without that, without bridges, without roads, without hospitals, without schools, life would not,  would cease to exist as we know it. So, it is exciting to see that Gen Z is embracing careers in the built environment. And not just our industry, but just skilled careers in general. Gen Z is being called the “toolbelt generation,” because they care about skills-based education. So, if they’re gonna go to college, they want a nursing degree. They want an accounting degree. They want, like, a skill when they come out. And then, we’re also seeing so many more, I think, college enrollment has decreased for the first time in a generation for the first time ever.

Julie Sowash:
Wow. And, I mean, college education is getting to a place where it's truly unaffordable for many of us. And, as I said, you know, grew up in a blue collar family. Auto unions, autoworkers, electricians. My grand, great grandfather was a member of the IBEW, the IUOE. I can go through all of the acronyms that make up my labor union life. And I grew up just fine. And there was absolutely no shame that I didn't come from a college educated background, I didn't come from a college educated family. Until, I remember, getting probably into my late teens, early 20s, when all of a sudden, you know, that kind of stigmatism came or stigma, came into the conversation. I was the first person in my family to graduate from college. So it, like, became sort of this medal of honor that I wore. And I have realized over time that, yeah, that's a great accomplishment, but that I shouldn't, it doesn't diminish the incredible life that my family gave me through skilled trades and skilled labor for generations.

Jennifer Dewees:
Absolutely. And I have the exact same background. My dad was an insulator and then later was a shop steward at facilities department at, actually, at a college. But neither one of my parents went to college. In fact, my dad didn’t even graduate from high school. So, the idea that I graduated from college, I was the first one in my extended family to get that degree was a huge badge of honor for me. But also, my parents, like, they, their generation is the one that was talking badly about people that didn’t go to college. But they didn’t go to college, right? That, we weren’t the ones. We were children. So, it is kind of crazy. I think Gen X gets a bad rap for it, but we were, it was the Boomer generation that started this precedent. But, you know, it’s ok. Cuz now we’re righting the ship and everything’s, it’s gonna be better. And it is already getting better.

Julie Sowash:
So what is attractive to Gen Z about coming into built environments and to kind of your area of the world? Why are they starting to choose that tool belt, so to speak?

Jennifer Dewees:
Yeah, I think it’s the, Gen Z is really socially conscious. So, they like the fact that they are able to make an impact, a real impact, on the literal world in which they live, right? They are pragmatic when it comes to career choices. There’s I have a liberal arts degree, but they just don’t seem to be chasing those as much. They want that, you know, to know that they have a career path. Little bit different than the Millennials that, like, hacked their jobs altogether. They seem to want more stability than, like, the Millennials before them. And I think the built environment provides that, right? It’s not going anywhere. We talked about, like, they’re we’re always gonna need electricians. We’re always gonna need plumbers. We’re always gonna need carpenters. So, I think there’s part of that as well.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, I know that within your work, you have a huge passion for DEI and DEI advocacy within construction workforce development. Tell me, kind of, what sparked that for you. And some of the projects or programs that you've worked on that you feel most proud of around DEI in construction.

Jennifer Dewees:
Yeah, so, I just kind of stumbled into the construction industry. I talked to, I went to college. I was an advertising major with a minor in sociology. And I ended up getting a job working for a really large construction management firm in their marketing department. And through my career, I ended up, you know, transitioning out of marketing and working on  project management for a smaller construction management firm. And started talking to employers who were and utility contractors that were trying to diversify their workforce. Because they realized we have this problem coming. And if we keep trying to recruit the same people, we’re never gonna hit our goals. And the more women I spoke to, the more minorities I spoke to, I realized, like, this industry really provides a pathway to success that no other industry does with a low barrier to entry, right? You don’t need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get into this industry. And as long as you’re willing to work hard and, you know, and learn, you can own your own business. And, you know, as a single mom, the idea of being able to provide for my family and, in an industry that there’s almost no pay gap, no gender pay gap in the construction industry, compared to, I think, women make, I think, it’s like 98 cents to a man’s dollar in the construction industry. Which is, 

Julie Sowash:
Wow.

Jennifer Dewees:
Still doesn’t seem 100% fair. But it is, compared to ...

Julie Sowash:
It's a lot better.

Jennifer Dewees:
some other industries, right?

Julie Sowash:
Wow.

Jennifer Dewees:
So, honestly, knowing all that and knowing the amazing opportunities that exist, that’s why I’m passionate about, like, evangelizing the opportunities of this industry to other folks that aren’t thinking of construction. Because when you think of a construction worker, you’re usually not thinking of a woman or, you know, a person of color. You’re thinking of, usually, a middle aged white man, right?

[laughter]

And we still need middle aged white men in the construction industry, right? And I’m not knocking middle aged white men at all. What I’m saying is that if you think differently about what kind of careers you can have as a person then, you know, the world’s your oyster kind of situation. Without, and then, as an industry, we don’t try to embrace. And we say that we’ll hire everyone. And the industry is available to everyone. But some organizations are better at that than others. And construction has some stereotyping for a reason when we think of how how the industry is. There’s usually truth in jest about things. So, if as an industry, we continue to try to do better, to reach populations that we currently aren’t really reaching. The current percentage is about 14% of the industry is women. And that includes office roles, project management roles. Everything skilled trades is just under 4%.

Julie Sowash:
Wow.

Jennifer Dewees:
So, we have a long way to go of really, truly embracing women in the industry. Once we do that, I think, if we can figure out how to fill this industry with women, then we will have solved our workforce problems. Because if women want to be here, everyone will want to be here.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah, no. Amazing, amazing. And it's something else we were talking about just before we started was, a webinar series that you are launching with the Kennedy Krieger Institute this fall. Can you tell us a little bit about that and also a little bit about why it's so impactful?

Jennifer Dewees:
Yes. So, the KenendyKrieger, they’re here based in Maryland. And they are a preeminent leader on neurodiversity. And supporting neurodiverse populations. 1 in 4 construction workers self identify as neurodiverse. And when I say neurodiversity, we talk, 50% of those folks are folks with ADHD, and the remaining are folks with dyslexia and autism. And the industry itself doesn’t often think that it’s an industry that can support people with a disability, because of the physical nature of this work. But when you consider  that a neurodiverse population is technically a disabled population, we are kickin’ butt on including disabled population. And it really makes sense. You know, construction, in its nature, is a place in which neurodiverse people can thrive. There is deadlines.  There’s structure, plans that need to be followed. But also, the days change every day. You’re out. You’re kinetically learning. You’re out in the field. You’re not sitting behind a desk all day. I mean, it really is a real, a place in which neurodiverse populations thrive. But I still think, as an industry, that we could do better when we’re supporting those populations. So that’s what our webinar series is gonna be, with the support of Kennedy Krieger. They are the experts on making places, businesses, schools, apprenticeship programs, whatever, accessible to neurodiverse folks. So we’re gonna be using some of their experts. And then, we’re gonna be highlighting some architects that specialize in creating, designing spaces to be better. I don’t know about you, but an open plan office is very hard for me to work in, because I have ADHD.

Julie Sowash:
Yep.

Jennifer Dewees:
And as much as I love to chat with my neighbors about things, I don’t get very much done when I have a lot of distractions. So, the idea of making collaborative spaces, but also private spaces. I’m really excited about this. because I don’t think it’s anything that the industry’s really thinking about right now. In fact, we’ve had some pushback from some of our partners. They’re like, 1 in 4 people? Like, that seems crazy. But I think there’s a lot of misnomers of what about, what it means to be neurodiverse as well.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I would love, if you guys are comfortable, we would love to share that webinar series when it comes out with our audience because even if you're not in construction or built environments, what you just said smashes stereotypes. It smashes that people with disabilities can't be a part of construction. And for a long time, even the federal government had a moratorium on affirmative action for construction contractors, because they were worried about not being able to fill critical roles. That was a missed opportunity. And when you can see, the other thing that you just said that just really stood out to me, because I also have ADHD, is structure, learning differently, learning with your hands, learning by doing. Not learning by sitting in front of a checklist of things that you have to do or a long manual that some PhD wrote that really is just verbose. It is an entirely different way to learn. And a lot of times at Disability Solutions, we talk about meeting people from a leadership perspective where they are. People do not learn the same way. And this is an excellent example of how people who process differently will thrive in environments where they can be trained differently.

Jennifer Dewees:
Yep.

Julie Sowash:
Fantastic.

Jennifer Dewees:
Yeah, we’re really excited about it. And it, I do think that this industry is accommodating people in ways they don’t realize that they’re accommodating. And so, I’m just really excited about helping people, like, connect the dots and realize, oh wow, I actually am already doing this work. How do I put a name to it? And how do I make sure that when I’ve got, you know, Gen Z has just spent, is probably the most diagnosed generation ever with neurodiversity. And has had all kinds of accommodations when they’ve been in school. And now, they’re entering the workforce. So, how do we make sure that that new employee that has just, you know, spent, you know, the last 12, 16 years in school with a 504 plan feels accommodated and feels supported, mostly supported at work.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah, and I ....

Jennifer Dewees:
And successful.

Julie Sowash:
I think it's such a great point and we already see that Gen Z is, the early graduates, are struggling in th workforce and are having, you know, a significantly higher unemployment rate whether they have a college education or not, than non-Gen Z workers. So, we've got both an opportunity from roles that we need to fill, but also a workforce that needs to get developed and fully integrated. So, I think it's smart that you're kind of thinking about, hey, this isn't just good for this person who has a disability. This is filling a workforce need that we are currently on track to not have and not have very soon. And so, I think that’s just a fantastic kind of win-win, which is how we like to talk about it. You know, and, I just want to change, shift subjects, really, as we kind of wrap up. You had a really great post on LinkedIn that caught our attention about Job Corps. 

Jennifer Dewees:
Yeah.

Julie Sowash:
And if our listeners don't know, Job Corps, as of right now, is set to be closed. Or the vast majority, about 100 of the 125 or so Job Corps centers around the country, are set to close on June 30th. Just in the last week, we've had a decision that stays those closures, which means those closures will not happen until the next set of court rulings. You're out of my, I’m out of my element there. And Job Corps is something that is truly transformational for young people and for our country. And I'm guessing that a lot of our listeners don't even know what Job Corps is and why you're so passionate about it.

Jennifer Dewees:
Yeah, so, I want to say that I don’t have any actual affiliation with Job Corps whatsoever. But I am, like you said, passionate about it. It is a federally funded job training education program run by US Dept of Labor. It’s for people ages 16-24 who meet low income requirements and want to learn a trade, complete their high school education, and prepare for a career. And it’s no cost. It’s a pathway to apprenticeship. There’s hands-on skill training, supportive services like housing and meals and transportation support, counseling, career guidance. All kinds of critical, wraparound services. And honestly,  it’s the no cost part. It’s free. So it’s giving, it’s for low-income kids. And honestly, the biggest, the hardest part about this closure is the fact that they’ll be homeless, right? Thousands of students [snaps fingers] like that. Homeless. And Job Corps is not without its problems, like any large run organization is. And what we’re hopeful, is that with this ruling, it does give Job Corps that time to potentially look at ways that it could be doing things better without making all of these students homeless. Because that is hard. Like, you’re saying right now. I hadn’t seen those stats on Gen Z and unemployment, but it will obviously continue to increase when we cut things like Job Corps.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah, yeah. And that's so critical. And I'm glad you brought up the homelessness, because I think I read about 80% of the students in Job Corps right now, when the program closes, will be unhoused at this point or at that point. So, that's a critical issue. But there's an, that's the critical, immediate issue that we don't want to lose sight of. But there's also the and. The and is all of the things that you've been mentioning throughout this entire interview of critical workforce development that you need in Maryland, that I know that we need in Indiana, that I can't imagine any of the other states have a perfect grasp on. So, you know, kind of if our listeners are also passionate about making sure that young people who need additional opportunities can get to work, can get to apprenticeship programs. Is there anything that we can do to advocate? Is there anything that we can do, even at our local level, to support these types of programs, whether it's Job Corps or something else?

Jennifer Dewees:
Yeah, well, first I would just encourage listeners, you know, contact your elected officials. Make sure that they know that you support, especially if you’re in, if you have a Republican elected officials, because they need to hear that you support this. And then, just get involved. There’s organizations in every single state and every single city that do workforce development. There’s organizations, like, in Indiana there’s the Construction Users Roundtable. Here in Maryland, we have the MCCI. But every municipality has a workforce board of some sort that’s probably providing some kind of apprenticeship or pre-apprenticeship program. Get involved. Find out what opportunities exist. There’s programs like Youth Build that was also supposed to be closing. There’s all kinds of government-supported, but also local government-supported workforce programs out there that need our help and that need to make sure that they’re not gonna go away. Cuz we need the government to help fund these programs. We’re lucky, like I said, in Maryland, that we have government support for apprenticeships. Not all state governments have that kind of support. So, without the federal government’s help, millions of jobs are gonna go unfilled. And it’s a huge missed opportunity, not just for the employers, but for the people themselves that really need good-paying jobs. And construction pays really well.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah. And those build our communities, right? Not just physically build our communities, but put money into our communities, provide or, you know, contribute to our economies. Thank you so much. This has been such a fun conversation. So we always end on two questions. So the first one is, if you could tell an employer one thing that would change their mind about hiring a person with a disability or hiring a person from a diverse background, what would that one thing be?

Jennifer Dewees:
Gosh, um, just do it. You know, I mean, you, like I said earlier, you don’t even realize that you probably are already employing disabled people. Some neurodiverse minds are the brightest minds in the world. So, you’re really missing out if you’re not making space for those folks in your businesses.

Julie Sowash:
And is there one thing that someone did for you that changed your life along your career?

Jennifer Dewees:
Gosh, I think, it’s the person that just told me to go for my dreams, right? The day that I said that I really wanted to do this work for a living before I even realized what I was saying what I wanted to do and she just said, go for it. You know, I just think back to her all the time and without her, I’d still be just plugging along in a construction company. Just, you know, making a decent salary, but not really feeling as fulfilled as I do every day knowing that we’re hopefully changing not just the future of the construction industry, but lives of Marylanders and beyond.

Julie Sowash:
100%. I don't think that we realize often enough in our life how impactful those words can be. That just go for it. If people want to connect with you, what's the best place to find you?

Jennifer Dewees:
Sure, I’m on LinkedIn all the time. Jennifer Dewees up there. And you can also find me  on our website, which is MCCEI.org.

Julie Sowash:
Amazing, amazing. So again, we want to thank you and MCCEI, the Maryland Center for Construction Education and Innovation, for supporting Changing Minds and Changing Lives podcast. Thank you for the work that you're doing. I think this is such a great conversation. Guys, we'll see you soon. Lots more guests coming up. But this conversation has been a perfect way for me to wrap up my week. So thanks, Jennifer. See you guys.

Jennifer Dewees:
Thank you. Take care.