CMCL Interview: Chris Ruden

Julie Sowash:
Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Changing Minds, Changing Lives. My name is Julie Sowash, as always, your host. I am the former executive director and co-founder of Disability Solutions. Now support that team as a strategic advisor. Also the CEO of Catch 22 Group. And, like on our last show, because I had so much to talk about with the guest that I’m about to bring on, I just want to dive right in and bring our guest in to talk about some things that we haven’t talked a lot about on this show before, and I think really deserve our full time and attention. So I want to introduce Chris Ruden, who is a world record holding powerlifter, motivational speaker and inclusion advocate and finalist on the Titan Games with Dwayne ‘The Rock’ Johnson. Chris was born with a disability and later diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. Chris has turned adversity into impact, helping organizations and individuals rethink bias, break limits and build cultures of real inclusion. Chris, welcome to Changing Minds, Changing Lives. 

Chris Ruden:
Thank you for having me. I'm excited for this conversation.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah, no. I’m so thrilled to talk to you. Tell us a little bit about you. Obviously you have a very impressive powerlifting, television and advocacy career, but what else is there in your world?

Chris Ruden:
On paper, I look really cool. But, you know, I feel like anyone can kind of tweak that to look awesome. Not to sideline accomplishments, but the majority of my life, I felt broken. You know, I was born with physical disability. I have two fingers on my left hand and a shorter left arm. I didn’t get diagnosed with type 1 diabetes until I was 19, but my entire life I grew up looking and functioning different. You know, now I have a super cool bionic arm that’s like, carbon fiber black bionic arm. But for 17 years, I hid my hand. You know, I was made fun of from elementary school on, but middle school really was a turning point for me, where I started hiding my hand and I shoved my hand in my pocket. From that point, I kept my hand in my pocket for almost 20 years, through partners, living with people for multiple years, to finally living my life at 27 years old. That’s when I stopped hiding my hand. I made a video and that went viral, and it kind of led to everything that I’m doing now as a professional speaker, professional powerlifting and bodybuilding, and now just helping people see their world without limits and trying to break some of these biases along the way.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah, amazing. I always appreciate, and I think we’ll talk about it more later, but we all benefit so much from hearing the stories of everyday lives lived and how you came to be fully comfortable with yourself and who you are and how you were made. So thank you for starting with that. An it kind of, I think, segues nicely into, you know, one of the topics I want to cover with you today. So, with Disability Solutions, we started in 2024, a survey called the Disability at Work Survey. And we always try to make sure that outside of just taking the static data that we want to measure year over year, that we mention something that is particularly relevant and supplemental to this particular year. And so this year we’re working on kind of the impact of how diversity, equity and inclusion has impacted potentially psychological safety and inclusion for people, employees with disabilities, their comfort levels around disclosure, whether it’s checking that box in the ATS system or the HRIS system, or just even talking for and asking for that accommodation. And so, I mean, talk to me a little bit about what does true psychological safety look like for you, for a disabled professional, for a new employee with a disability entering the workforce?

Chris Ruden:
Well, I think we have to remember that psychological safety or comfort doesn’t exist in a vacuum. And that’s often why it’s really hard to work around. Because people are saying, do you feel safe? Yes or no? And I don’t believe it’s a yes or no question. Because there are so many different factors. It’s multifaceted. Where are you at in your life? Where are you at in your personal comfort level? Where are you at with your peers? Where are you at with the overall corporate culture of the organization? I really feel like there's macro and micro factors to psychological safety, if that makes sense. And it’s the compound effect of all of those factors that lead to someone feeling more or less safe. I would almost argue there is no absolute psychological safety, because that would completely remove the human experience of we live in uncertain times. That’s what life is: uncertainty. But how do we create the most amount of psychological safety? That’s gonna look like one, internally. How are you with yourself? Speaking specifically from disability, that internalized ableism or those feelings of confidence or contentment or what is your mindset around yourself? And then we go to actual, like, external factors like leadership, culture, bias, stigma or ableism in the workspace. We add the political factor. You know, we add the socioeconomic factor. There's so many factors that lead to psychological safety that bleed into other areas. So, I think you have to take it piece by piece. But when we specifically talk about workplace culture, there are certain things leaders can do to create a safer space. And that's just making people feel welcome, making people feel like they belong, and not ostracizing someone for what they have or don’t have. I truly believe a big, I don’t want to say burden, but a big responsibility of leaders is to make sure that people belong or don't feel on the outside and that’s through actually seeing people for who they are, and not what they have or don’t have. Does that make sense?

Julie Sowash:
Yeah, no. It totally does. And I appreciate the way that you put it, because I never really thought of psychological safety on a continuum. But it's not only a continuum. It's also dynamic.

Chris Ruden:
Very.

Julie Sowash:
When I feel safe in X situation, doesn't mean I feel safe in the same situation the next day.

Chris Ruden:
Absolutely.

Julie Sowash:
And so, you know, just speaking of, I guess, how tenuous psychological safety can be for a variety of groups, but in particular people with disabilities in this current climate, you know, what are some things that companies can solidly do to help create space for disabled workers in a way that is not tokenizing and is also not clearly marketing?

Chris Ruden:
And I'm glad you brought that up. Because, you know, a lot of people tend to check the box. And I was a big proponent of, like, stop checking the box. Stop just checking the box. And then I realized some people genuinely think they're doing great. Their intentions are fantastic. But they don't understand at depth what that looks like. So, given the political climate we're in, there are some clear limitations with what we can do, and I think we have to address that. We have to acknowledge that sometimes the environment is not the most optimal or conducive for the most amount of psychological safety. It would be hard to argue against that in the current political climate that we're in. Now, the question is, what can we do regardless of that climate? Leaders, I think, forget the importance of consistency and repetition or just showing up consistently for employees and giving them a space to be heard. Not just once a year on a celebration month, not just once a month for an ERG meeting. How can you consistently remind people that you see them and you hear them? By consistently listening and consistently giving a platform for people who are exposed or more vulnerable to less psychological safety in the climate we’re in, let alone any climate. Being consistently there for your employees of all minorities and marginalization, is one of the easiest ways to provide a comfortable level of psychological safety. As a reminder that you’re seeing, you’re valued and I have your back. That, in some of the companies that I speak for, I’ve talked with some of the leaders and they’re like, there’s not much else we can do other than just showing up daily and weekly for our employees. And that is a huge start or a huge component of creating familiarity with safety. And I think that's what we need to do is create familiarity with safety through consistency. 

Julie Sowash:
I like the way that you’re thinking about that. And I guess I would add, or, I think, expand upon where you’re at is that when you talk a lot about leaders showing up for their people. And I think sometimes as people leaders, like middle management people leaders, sometimes we feel like only the CEO can create change. Only the COO can create change. But really, we work for good bosses or we leave bad bosses, right? And that’s not any different for people with disabilities. So teaching, having a culture where it is the attitude of middle management that we show up every day for our employees. We don’t have a checklist to get through. Our job as leaders is to develop, mentor and create the optimal environment for our teams to be successful in doing what they're doing. I think that’s just so beautifully said by you that, you know, it is really about showing up every day for people. And 99% of the time, that’s gonna happen on the 1 to 1 level.

Chris Ruden:
Absolutely. And I think we tend to confuse showing up for with speaking for. Just because someone has a disability doesn’t mean they need to be spoken for. Arguably, they need to be spoken to, not for.

Julie Sowash:
Yes.

Chris Ruden:
Giving people, showing up for your employees with disabilities means showing up to listen, not showing up to ignore or showing up to represent. This is not a time for you to be, I guess, the best way I can say it is lead by listening. You know, being listened to, curiosity, will take leaders so far in creating culture and inclusion, but, in reality, belonging, which reduces the lack of psychological safety. If less than 30% of people feel safe at work, that means 70% of people are not operating their best. And there's a business case for that. There's a humanity case for that. But that's mostly because we get caught up in the work by people and we don't get caught up in the people that do the work.

Julie Sowash:
Yes.

Chris Ruden:
We have to prioritize people. And if we want to prioritize the innovation and the future and all of this, we have to put people first. And you can't put people first if you don't listen to them. Psychological safety and listening are synonymous. 

Julie Sowash:
So, my, one of my favorite stories from the beginning of my marriage is when I got married, my husband and I, we went to see a counselor together because we were really committed to our love. And the counselor always used to tell him, if you could just take off your belt, right? Your workman's belt with all your hammers and your screwdrivers and all of those things and just listen to the words that your wife are saying. That's all that she wants right now. I still remind him of that story all the time.

Chris Ruden:
That’s a really good visual. I really love that for a lot of reasons.

Julie Sowash:
But that’s exactly what it reminded me of when you said that is, and this happens all of the time in consulting, as I'm sure you can attest, is that you have allies who are so committed to supporting their coworker with XYZ disability or the group in general that they go into immediately into fix it mode.

Chris Ruden:
Yep.

Julie Sowash:
How can I talk to so-and-so leader about making, you know, my employee with the disabilities’ workstation better? How can I make sure that my coworker with ADHD is getting what she or he or she needs to be effective? And you know, we have to sit back and say you have to allow people to advocate for themselves. And they're also capable of advocating for ourselves. And by feeling like you need to do that, you can also infantilize your coworkers, your employees, your colleagues, who just need you to hear what their needs are, allow that you as their ally to be that safe space. And then encourage them to go forward in advocating for the things that they need for themselves.

Chris Ruden:
I think it is two. There’s two elements at work here. There’s the people without bad intentions that are trying genuinely to improve the situation, but they lack the awareness of what they’re doing to the person with the disability. And then there's a person with the disability that needs to learn to communicate in a way that's more we and not just throwing stones at people. I think we’ve been as a disabled community, we’ve been hurt so many times that anyone who does anything wrong, we’re ready to throw stones at them. And I know for me personally, I went through so much hiding my disability and feeling broken and useless and helpless the majority of my life, maybe because of society or ableism or internalized ableism, that anyone who came at me around my disability was evil or was the problem. And it took me peeling back that and saying, like, listen, their intentions are good. How can I correct this situation? I can’t just say you’re wrong, because that doesn’t solve anything. You know, if you get a flat tire, pointing at the flat tire and telling it it’s bad does nothing. So we have to ask ourselves, what can we do with our current situation to make this better? And it’s hard. It’s really hard. But curiosity on both ends allows people to see multiple solutions and potentially move forward. It’s not about right or wrong, it’s about optimal or less optimal. And that’s one thing my therapist taught me that I loved is not seeing things right or wrong and start seeing things as is this going to help the situation or hurt the situation? 

Julie Sowash:
I might have to put that one into practice.

Chris Ruden:
I love it, really. It's stopped demonizing possibilities and solutions. And it just started saying, is this gonna help you or hurt you? And you know the answer.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah. And I think something else you said just really stood out to me is curiosity. I think, as humans, I agree like 98% I would say of people that I’ve engaged with through the last 15 years of this work who are not disabled, want to do the right thing. They want to be supportive. They want their employees or their staff people to be successful. But they are so scared of hurting someone’s feelings, of offending someone, of being the recipient of some of those stones that we throw, that we end up shutting down a lot of conversations. And so, you know, really just accepting that most people are working from a place of positive intent. And the only way to know that is to give that opportunity for that curiosity and for people to ask questions that are probably dumb, definitely dumb.

[laughs]

Chris Ruden:
They should be dumb, because if they know the answers, they probably wouldn’t be having the conversation in the first place.

Julie Sowash:
Good point. [laughs]

Chris Ruden:
The best way to figure out if you can trust someone is by trusting them. We are so often wanting from other people what we’re not willing to give ourselves.

Julie Sowash:
Wow.

Chris Ruden:
And it’s really tough. And it's part of the stuff I speak about on stage because, yes, inclusion is important, culture is important. But trust, trust is what connects people. That’s that bridge from people to people. And trust improves with psychological safety. But you have to give people the opportunity to be trusted.

Julie Sowash:
Mmm-hmm.

Chris Ruden:
You have to give that trust. And it's hard, especially if trust has been broken many, many times before. But if 30 people broke your trust in the past, you can’t continually assume that everyone’s gonna be the same way. Now, you can’t give that out freely. There is a rate of limiting returns. If you consistently making mistakes, you have to be curious enough to figure out why. But sometimes you have to be willing to give that trust out. That goes from leaders to employees and employees to leaders.  But once you break that trust, you can’t be upset by the consequences of that action. 

Julie Sowash:
And I think that if we go back macro for a second, you know, we have companies who I believe some over the past decade who’ve been doing the work, who’ve been doing it and doing it really well. And now we have a situation, some by their own choice if we go back macro for a second, you know, we have companies who I believe some over the past decade who've been doing the work, who've been doing it and doing it really well. And now we have a situation, some by their own choice and some others, I feel, like, are playing the hand that they've been dealt, have publicly pulled back their support of not just DEI in a broad term, but, in particular, people with disabilities. And when we think about trust and where we spend our dollar, where we choose to go to work, where we maybe choose to go in and check that box and do self-identification, what do you think the process is for companies to start rebuilding trust when the umbrella of companies have now just broken at least five years worth of trust building, let's say, since the murder of George Floyd. All of that psychological safety at a macro level has been undone with the sweep fo a pen, in some cases. Do you have any guidance for how you ask employers at a very senior level to look at building trust within the organization?

Chris Ruden:
So when I hear about certain companies pulling back their support, that tells me that the support was never there to pull back in the first place. It was not support. It was bandwagoning. It was something inauthentic. Unless there was a leadership change inside that company, that everything drastically changed, if the same leaders who did support no longer support, that’s a choice. And by making that choice against people, you effectively removed trust within that community. I don’t think you’ve earned the right to rebuild the trust that you consciously broke, because there are many companies who altered paths who did support or pivoted to reword DEI or still focus on culture or people or whatever that looks like. But for the companies that chose to pull away more than needed,

Julie Sowash:
Mmm-hmm.

Chris Ruden:
I think trust can only be rebuilt with the formation of a new leadership team, which means the exit of the old leadership team. Maybe I'm extreme with that belief, but I don't believe any authenticity can come from a team that acted that way against the community that it supported. It’s, I don’t think that is realistic for people to trust. And I don’t think that it could be earned back, personally. Now, for those that have pivoted and might have been affected by federal contracts or things like that, we understand that companies do have to survive. Thousands and thousands of people rely on that. But there is a degree of pullback that is different than a complete dropping support of a community. And I think we know the difference and we have to be honest  with ourselves. What truly happened? Did they try to protect this community by pivoting? Or did they drop the community altogether? That’s gonna determine my level of I believe trust can be rebuilt or I believe trust can't be rebuilt.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah. I think I would add on that, to me, it is, and I’ll be blunt, it’s the ultimate form of weakness.

Chris Ruden:
It is.

Julie Sowash:
We have an incredibly powerful corporate class in this country. And for them to be committed to the work, not committed to the work, whatever it was, but for them to put their brand at such jeopardy and to put their employees at such jeopardy so quickly, to me, more than me not trusting you is I don't see you as viable from a leadership perspective. I don't want to work for weak people. I want to work for strong, innovative companies that are not just gonna change the way that we do business and XYZ, but are committed to protecting and taking care of the staff that takes care of them every single day.

Chris Ruden:
Conditional commitment is not commitment, you know. Party-based commitment is not commitment.

Julie Sowash:
Yep.

Chris Ruden:
So that goes for both sides, regardless of what party you prefer. If you only commit when it’s party focused, you’re not committed to the idea. You’re committed to the party or the ideology, which means there’s no true commitment to people there. And if people are secondary, I don’t believe you’re in a position to lead a culture into the future. I just don't think it's there. That’s why I said leadership change would definitely, in my mind, be needed. Because once you break that trust with a community by a choice you made that I know you didn’t make in haste, you thought about it and you chose that. I just don't see that coming back. You know, for other leaders who pivot, I talked with so many amazing leaders of amazing companies that I speak for on a regular basis where they actively say we’ve had to pivot coming back in our language, we've had to pivot in the way we do certain things so that we maintain our contracts. But we have still prioritized people, and we've made sure that our people are safe. Making sure that your people are safe through an extreme change, whether that be political or economic or whatever that looks like, that, to me, shows where effort and priority lies. And that is innovative leadership. Because the future of work, to me, is not AI or technology. That's gonna be the standard, not the future. The future of work is the people who prioritize people amongst all of the innovation, tech and AI. Everyone is going to have AI and already pretty much does.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah.

Chris Ruden:
But not everyone is going to prioritize people and have the trust of the people. That, to me, is the true future of work. Skate to where the puck is going, not where it currently is. 

Julie Sowash:
We are full of great analogies today.

[laughs]

Chris Ruden:
I feel like, are you just reading, like, Snapple cans?

[laughs]

Chris Ruden:
Being a speaker onstage has its detriments sometimes.

[laughs]

Julie Sowash:
No. And I agree. I think that we will see a pull back to humanity. I don’t know that. I don’t know how quick that elastic is gonna snap, so to speak. But I do agree that smart companies will be human forward, because that’s what at least most of us are going to expect, and especially the biggest generation in some time coming into the workforce right now, who are more likely to recognize that they have disabilities, be properly diagnosed, and have been fully empowered since they were born, to expect that they will be fully included in whatever space they’re in. I think that’s a really good point. So, let’s talk a little bit, kind of like, take me back to your journey a little bit. Because the other thing that I want to talk about is internalized ableism. And you and I chatted about this a little bit before. We haven’t talked about this a lot on the, this podcast. And I’ve just sort of started recently talking about it in some of my speaking opportunities is that, you know, internalized ableism can be one of the most powerful barriers to our success, sometimes even more so than our physical disability or mental health disability. And I’ve just learned how frequent it is for people who live with mental health disabilities, which is the disability category that I fit in, have sometimes more internalized ableism than people who have physical disabilities or apparent disabilities. And not that it’s a competition, but that really, really struck me is how much our internalized monologue drives what we feel like we can accomplish. And I think you started to kind of get into that when your first introduction. But I would love to hear more about how that impacted you and how you overcame it to really live this wildly interesting life.

Chris Ruden:
So, my parents, my mom specifically, she was a nurse. And she did everything she could to try and shelter me and protect me. We grew up in a really bad area in Florida and I was always used to a very small group of people growing up. But when I went to middle school, we couldn’t afford any, like, good schooling. So I went to a very public middle school in the area I was. And that’s when I was exposed to severe, like, bullying because of my hand. I never hid my hand before at that time. Specifically, the turning point for me was there was this girl named Krystal, and she was the prettiest girl in my class. And I worked up the courage to talk to Krystal. You know, I remember walking up to her desk, and I remember exactly where it was in the room, right by the teacher’s desk. And my friend started laughing. So I turned around and I’m like, stop, you know, you’re gonna mess this up. And I turn back around and she is making fun of my hand with the stapler, calling me claw boy in front of the whole class. She humiliated me and I pretended like it didn't hurt, but it killed me. I shoved my hand in my pocket and I kept my hand in my pocket for four years after that, until I found a way to wear a glove. And that became my identity. I wore a glove over my left hand and long sleeves in South Florida, which is really hot, all the time. I always covered my hand. But I was very outgoing, because I felt like I had to prove something. And while everyone was, like, wow, Chris does everything. He plays drums with that. I shoved a drumstick through the finger hole of the glove, and I did, like, dance. And I did all of this stuff. But it was all an attempt to prove, maybe to other people, but more so to myself, that I'm, that I can do it. Because I didn't truly believe that I could. I believed that I was broken. And some of those synonyms for disability, like broken or useless, like, I lived that. And it took years and years and years, 17 years of hiding my hand in public to the point where I started my speaking career and I was still hiding my disability onstage, speaking about overcoming adversity. I was hiding in plain sight. So I thought that’s just how I was gonna live my life. And I accepted it. I fully accepted that I was the guy who wore the glove, not the guy who had the disability, the guy who wore the glove. Because that sounded better to me, you know? And there was one specific moment where I was speaking at a Disney resort for type 1 diabetics. And there was this little girl. We’re walking down this hallway. I spent all day with her. She was like 11 years old. She had just been diagnosed. And we're walking down this long hallway. She grabs my ahdn over the glove. And that was a no no. Like, I never took that glove off. People never talked about it, because I had this persona about me, like, don’t ask, you know. She grabbed it and she just started swinging it like a little kid would. And I froze and she was like, she looked at me and she said, it’s ok. You don’t have to hide around me.

Julie Sowash:
Oh.

Chris Ruden:
And I was like, there's almost a thousand people here to hear me speak. And she’s the only one who, like, actually saw me. And that was one of the moments that I was like, what happens if I? Curiosity. What happens if I stop? What happens if I stop hiding my hand? What happens if I stop thinking about myself as broken? What if, what if, what if in the right way. And I eventuallyk, you know, took my glove off and made a video about it. The girl I was with at the time, we were together for four years. And she edited that video. And that was the first time she saw my hand.

Julie Sowash:
Really?

Chris Ruden:
First time she saw my hand. We lived together. That was the first ever time she saw my hand was editing that video. I didn't even let her in the room when I was recording the video.

Julie Sowash:
That’s incredible.

Chris Ruden:
I posted that video and woke up to millions of views on YouTube and life just went crazy. But it was cool to see jumping in the deep end. How many other people lived just like me. When I told myself I was on an island by myself. Part of my lack of belonging came from I isolated myself. And we don’t like to talk about that because we always say belonging is an external thing, but there is an internal component to everything. So I'm not gonna blame, but I am gonna say responsibility is shared. It's not pointed. So part of my responsibility to say was saying no one understands. No one gets this. I had thousands and thousands of people who were pretty much emulating exactly what I was going through. And I was like, wow. I am not on an island like I thought I was. A lot of people understand. And I was like, why do a lot of people understand? That's what started my whole, like, focus on helping people just live better lives and earn quality of life that they deserve, not given by society. Who says who should and who shouldn't have, you know?

Julie Sowash:
Yeah. I mean, thank you for sharing that. It's, I would love sometime to hear the story in its entirety, because it’s, that’s, it’s amazing that those little people sometimes in very innocuous, just behaviors change kind of the course of a destiny. That’s fantastic. Thank you for sharing. So, as we’re wrapping up, I think, it would be helpful in a couple of different ways. So we always end up with, like, hey, what’s one thing that you would tell an employer to change their mind about people with disabilities? But if you would for me, what is one thing that you would tell an employer to help them understand the impact of external ableism being internalized by their employees with disabilities?

Chris Ruden:
I think we think about a lot of hurtful rhetoric being outwardly hurtful or aggressive or obvious. But what we don’t understand is ableism is silent. Sometimes ableism is not spoken, but it’s not spoken. It’s the things you don’t do. It’s the people you don’t include. It's the removal of humanity. It’s not that you’re actively doing something. It’s that you’re actively not doing something. You’re actively not including the person. You’re actively not considering people’s abilities. And consideration, I think, is one of the best ways to start removing some of this ableism. Ableism is just a forgotten group of people. It’s not that you don’t like them or you hate them. It’s not rooted in hate most of the time. It’s rooted in, ah, you don’t matter, or, ah, I forgot about them, by constantly being forgotten. You have to put yourself in people’s place. Imagine if your partner constantly forgot about you. Imagine if your kid constantly forgot about you. Imagine if your parent constantly forgot about you consistently. How would you feel? You would be conditioned to feel less than. You would be conditioned to feel incapable or not valuable. And if you were conditioned to feel those ways, what kind of work output would you do? What kind of team player would you be? You would always hide in the shadows. You would never take risks. You would embody that lack of consideration. Now ask yourself as a leader, do you want your employees to embody a lack of consideration? A good leader or a decent leader would say no.

Julie Sowash:
Yes.

Chris Ruden:
So what does that mean? Externalized ableism can be lessened or completely removed by considering or being curious as to how they could accomplish something, instead of telling yourself the story that they can't because of the situation you don't understand. Curiosity can help reduce or eliminate ableism by helping people feel seen, it, which creates more psychological safety and that they belong because they feel seen. And, two, learning and exposing yourself to different ways that you might not have been familiar with, which now makes that persona  part of the team instead of just someone you put on the bench to check a box.

Julie Sowash:
Beautiful. So outside of this amazing little girl who helped change your destiny, what is one thing someone did for you that helped change your life?

Chris Ruden:
I will say, the biggest thing for me is someone hiring me. The first time I ever got hired to speak that had nothing to do with my disability. When I first started my speaking career, I always got hired to be the motivational speaker. I always got hired to tell my story because I have a cool prosthetic arm, you know? And I was like, ok, that’s nice, but I’m like, that’s it just didn’t feel right, you know? I was like, that’s cool and all, but, like, what about my ideas? What about my concepts and my solutions? And I’ll never forget, I had a call with a specific company. They were asking me questions. They wanted me to speak on change. And I just expected. I was like, ok, so I’m guessing you want me to tell my story about my disability and motivate and inspire? They're like, no. I’m like, that. They’re like, that’s cool and all. But we really respect your ideology around change. That was such a simple thing. And it’s a to the person, to her. She was like, oh yeah, that’s, we just want that. But to me, I was like, oh my God. I'm actually valued for what I provide and not this like dance monkey dance mentality, you know? And I don’t know that just meant so much to me to be seen for who I am and not what I have. Because my entire life I’ve always been seen for what I have.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah. 

Chris Ruden:
And whether that helped to my benefit or my detriment, I really enjoyed being seen as Chris. Not the disabled guy, not the diabetic guy, not the powerlifter, not the guy who was in magazines and TV shows and all of these cool things. But just Chris. That’s it. 

Julie Sowash:
Chris with really good ideas.

Chris Ruden:
Yeah, that, to me, was incredible.

Julie Sowash:
So I just want to thank you for the conversation. Your willingness to be open about your story and, I think, share some insights that our audience has not had before. If they want to connect with you, tell us where to find you.

Chris Ruden:
So everywhere just @ my name. @ChrisRuden. LinkedIn is where I'm most active around disability inclusion. But I'm on all platforms and my website is just chrisruden.com. So feel free to reach out. I do want to say thank you for doing this and putting this podcast out there, because it’s something I wish I would have had access to when I was a kid and struggling. And on that island by myself. It would have been nice to know there's someone like you putting out information to bridge those gaps.

Julie Sowash:
Thank you. You guys, another amazing episode of Changing Minds, Changing Lives. Chris, thank you for joining us. You guys have an amazing day. Catch up on some back episodes and let us know who else you want to hear from. Bye.