CMCL Interview: David Rice

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:31:12
Julie Sowash
Welcome back to the Changing Minds and Changing Lives podcast. I'm your host, Julie Sowash, co-founder and strategic advisor at Disability Solutions and CEO at the catch 22 Group. And I am, as always, so happy to be back with you all today. Before we bring in our guests, I wanted to share a couple of pieces of disability related news that kind of caught my eye this week.

00:00:31:14 - 00:00:55:15
Julie
The first from Disability Scoop, which, if you guys are not subscribers, I think they do a phenomenal job on kind of keeping us up to date on the latest and, news impacting the community. The piece is titled ID Providers Increasingly Swallowed Up by Private Equity, and it was published just earlier this month. And the author is Michelle Diamant.

00:00:55:17 - 00:01:25:09
Julie
You know, over the past decade, I learned in this article private equity firms are gobbling up private disability services providers and making billions billions with a B off of services provided to people with the most significant disabilities, oftentimes living in community, in the community, and funded through both Medicaid and home and community based services. So what about this caught my eye other than the billions?

00:01:25:11 - 00:01:50:02
Julie
The question is, is what does PE want with a DSP organization? We all know these are nonprofits that are no one's getting rich off, serving people with disabilities and are often reliant on state and government payments to fund those services. And PE, if you don't know, is often just looking for short-term capital returns on their investments.

00:01:50:04 - 00:02:15:22
Julie
What I learned is that these PE firms, which are now employing over 100,000 people around the United States and again, have made billions through just cutting services. And here's the kicker. The big profit is because they are saddling the nonprofit service providers with the PE's own debt, which is a completely legal and I would say, highly unethical thing to do.

00:02:15:24 - 00:02:46:07
Julie
And so as we're kind of coming into the spring and the budget season, and potentially cutting Medicaid payments and looking at potential re-institutionalization, of not an insignificant percentage of our population, that the lack of oversight on these PE deals is likely to inflict more suffering on our most vulnerable. And I just want you guys to be aware of this, because this is something that normally in an employment space would kind of completely slip by me.

00:02:46:09 - 00:03:26:18
Julie
But a lot of these people are also receiving employment services from the DSP providers, and it's going to impact people getting to work, living in our communities and having the services that they need on a daily basis. With that, I also want to share some good news. Apple announced this week that they're adding additional accessibility features in their newest iOS release, including improved Braille reading, better voice replication, and a feature I think is really cool called nutrition labels and not actual nutrition labels, but a feature within the App Store that tells users which excels.

00:03:26:18 - 00:03:52:17
Julie
Accessibility features work in a particular app. So really another great reason to make sure that the apps you're creating are accessible. So there's always a lot happening in our world, and I'm super curious what is on you guys as mine this week or any time. Let us know so we can make sure our listeners and our viewers know what's happening in the world around you in disability and inclusion.

00:03:52:19 - 00:04:20:24
Julie
But with that, I do want to welcome our guest, who? I'm very excited to be able to have a conversation with David Rice, who's also joined by his interpreter, Brianna. David is a disability advocate, a disability employment architect. I love that title. Building accessible workplaces, Executive lead league leader and public speaker. Also a dad, a dog dad.

00:04:21:01 - 00:04:43:14
Julie
Oh, I'm going to get those words out. A dog dad. We all love our puppies are out here. David has an impressive history of advocacy and policy work for our community, including at the National Institutions of Health and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. He is currently working on employment initiatives at the CEO Commission for Disability Employment. David, welcome to

00:04:43:14 - 00:04:50:03
Julie
Changing Minds, Changing Lives.

00:04:39:13 - 00:04:48:20
David Rice
Hi, everybody. Hi. Thank you. I'm so, so happy to be here today.

00:04:50:05 - 00:04:56:01
Julie
So tell us a little bit about you.

00:04:56:23 - 00:05:17:08
David
Yeah. So, a little bit about me. And, my name is, David Rice, and, I am, deaf, profoundly deaf. I've been deaf since I was the age of four. And growing up in an environment where I was the only deaf person in my entire town, let alone my own, at my only school. There was a lot of, different challenges that I had growing up, but, with some really great parents supported by my side.

00:05:17:10 - 00:05:52:19
David
I did fairly well in, in school, I played football for baseball. Play basketball. I was fully integrated into, you know, the entire, school community. And it was during my time. And, as I think it was my junior year as a football, one of the football players. And we invited, my coach invited one of the, they would call Camp Rachel, would one of the, camps that came and to do sort of like an Olympic type of, event for those with intellectual disabilities.

00:05:52:19 - 00:06:22:08
David
And, it was my first, exposure really, to disability outside my own lens. And I fell absolutely in love with it just because, I had a sort of connection there, and I continued doing that all the way through, until I graduated and went into, Catholic University of America and at Catholic, you know, I wanted to keep my disability advocacy going, and I kind of found my passion of who I was.

00:06:22:11 - 00:06:46:06
David
And we created one of the first, dorm room where everyone in the dorm learned American Sign Language. They were hearing people, they were deaf individuals there. And that entire floor of the dorm room with them. Learn about American Sign Language and to be able to speak and American Sign Language during the, my, my freshman and sophomore year.

00:06:46:08 - 00:07:20:23
David
And it were during that time I got involved with, joint, sports and Gallaudet University had, had a baseball team where I college, a high school baseball team. And I did that for about eight years, and my work and my work late, I got into the National Institute of Health, mainly to because I, I, I felt like being in the cutting edge research and science was something that I would absolutely love to do.

00:07:20:23 - 00:07:45:05
David
And I first jumped in, I was an executive assistant to the executive officer. I love the work of the National Institute of Health. And as I were developing my career, I started to say, hey, there's a disability program manager at NIH that oversees all of the disability employment programs at NIH I think and I'm thinking over there like, that's the job I want in five, six years.

00:07:45:07 - 00:08:14:28
David
And so I started doing some work and not popping up in government, becoming the president of deaf in government, continuing to work on my disability advocacy on the side, the kind of thing about my private that when that position opened that I would be well suited and position for it. And when I got the job, I was ecstatic because there was something that allow me to look at disability employment across NIH, but also for, health disparities for I, for individual disability.

00:08:14:28 - 00:08:43:16
David
It's something I'm deeply committed and passionate about. And so when I started doing all of this, disability employment, I started doing some consulting work with, the CEO Commission on Disability Employment, where we go into organizations that are committed to building employment, and we sort of look at, where they are, do an assessment, get them from proven come back practice, and we work with our servicing partners to be able to provide them some resources that they may need.

00:08:43:19 - 00:09:10:21
David
And so disability employment, it's something that, it's, it's a calling and it's a legislative that I want to leave as something that I think we all deserve. And I mean, for employment. And I really want to give that back to, the disability community here at and United States. 

00:09:10:22 - 00:09:39:16
Julie
Yeah. I mean, that's amazing. Just top to bottom. Such a fantastic story. Always thankful for good parents. No matter if we have a disability or not. Makes so much different difference. And you and I had a chance to chat, before we recorded, and. And we both kind of share that passion for, helping providers and organizations better understand what it's like to be disabled in the health care system.

00:09:39:18 - 00:10:08:13
Julie
And I think there are a lot of assumptions that everyone with a disability is either sick or ill. Or even that our medical facilities are accessible and health care providers are trained to support patients with disabilities, which, you know, we found in the last few years to be definitely very untrue. Can you tell our listeners some of the most kind of common barriers to health care access for our community?

00:10:08:15 - 00:10:26:07
David
Yeah. Yeah. I think, on a generic term, the biggest barrier is, you know, the lack of understanding. In fact, when we were going, when we were doing some research on, trying to get the National Institute of Health to under to accept disability, had the health disparity population where we can put funding and research and to try to, remove those barriers.

00:10:26:14 - 00:11:04:18
David
We found that a lot of the medical, university, even college it out there may only provide like a couple hours seminar on disability related, to social construct of disability identity. Because a lot of our medical unit, medical school, they focus not so much about the cure and so much about fixing the person. And I feel in some ways they get away from the, the, the human aspect, individual coming in to, they have an ailment of a broken bone.

00:11:04:18 - 00:11:30:05
David
They get sick, God forbid they have diagnosed with cancer on top of their disability. They already have. We need to bring that humility in there. And what I mean by you, humility, I mean, when someone is deaf and hard of hearing you don't you don't make them have them constantly fight for an interpreter. You know that you have a deaf patient you need.

00:11:30:05 - 00:12:04:20
David
You already have it on your chart and they need an interpreter. Make sure that you're providing it to them. And when I look at look back at, health care and I talked briefly about the social, aspect, vs. the medical model, if we can mix and not because the medical model, not the disability. But we do want our physicians and our medical provider to be able to fix or cure whatever that is outside of their, identity of who they are.

00:12:04:22 - 00:12:22:07
David
I am a I'll give you an example. I'm a deaf man. I do not want a cure for my hearing. I am happy of who I am. I know a man is shaped me for who I am. So I don't want to go to a doctor's office. And they're asking me questions about why I don't have a cochlear implant.

00:12:22:10 - 00:12:40:24
Davie
I'm there for him. I had the flu. I'm there for something from other reason that I'm working for why? Why I'm trying to get it. I'm trying to get better from the flu. I don't really need to be discussed a lot about my hearing loss, and why I don't have a cochlear implant, and that's really about that, a identity portion of it.

00:12:40:28 - 00:13:16:27
David
And, realizing that not everyone has it, that everybody wants to be cured from the disability. So there are some high level, barriers. There are a lot of barriers pretending, particularly if you think about the blind and low vision, population out there. Walking in a hospital is already very difficult for someone who's sighted. And how are you expect the people that have line of low vision to go into an E.R. if you don't have the accessibility tools out there and be able to, ensure that they get the care that they need.

00:13:17:00 - 00:14:17:08
David
And the same goes with deaf and hard of hearing when you walk into the, you know, the checking area in, what's the first thing they do? Oh, we don't know that look right on a piece of paper. Why can't we use other technologies that are out there that can provide them with not only health care, health care, but have top notch, customer service for, people with disabilities.

00:13:48:07 - 00:14:23:23
Julie
Yeah. I think it's such a good point, because it is customer service. You have your choice of which facility to go to in some cases. Some cases are very limited. And I think if I could summarize and you tell me if if I've got this right is really the biggest barrier is the lack of proactive, thoughtful engagement for patients with disabilities and often focusing on the wrong thing at time of treatment.

00:14:17:10 - 00:14:43:06
David
Yeah. Yes, exactly. And you hit the nail on the head. I know I'm a little long winded person, but that's basically upgrade. Summer renovation of what? I was, trying to convey. And it. And if you think about it though, the medical providers, they really do care for the majority of them, they do care for their patient. I've, I've been in, in that we call it we used to call it the National.

00:14:43:08 - 00:15:07:02
David
We still do the National Institute of Health. You go in there and you toxin and nurse and you talk to the doctor in there. They really care for the patient, but it's for a lack of education around how to interact with someone with a disability. Is something that I think medical school can provide a little bit more contact than just a two hour seminar.

00:15:07:04 - 00:15:30:13
David
I how, to, how to work with patients with disability with a different disabilities. And then and in fact, I'll bring up, a real quick showing at the National Institute of Health we used to have on our mission statement, mission statement, the National Institute of Health, where it says, reduce the burden, do reduce the burden of disability and illnesses.

00:15:30:15 - 00:16:14:23
David
I talked to a lot of co, coworkers of mine, we had an employee resource group, called, disability. And. No, I mean deaf at NIH. And we were just talking like, I don't feel like my disability, the burden. So why should why should that be? Mission of the the best biomedical research center in the world to reduce the burden of disabilities and so after talking to, the NIH director at that time, Doctor Collins, and then talking through the EEOC director at the time, Deborah Chu, we all agreed that we could remove the word, the word "burden", because we have to think about people with disability who don't really

00:16:14:23 - 00:17:15:13
David
consider them a burden to anyone where people that pay or captions where people that want to work. We're people that go to the gym. We, we go golfing when we go on vacation, we do everything just like anyone else does. Except for that, we have a disability that prevents us from fully participating like everyone else can.

00:17:16:09 - 00:17:54:16
Julie
Yeah. No. I love that story. That is such a great way that you can see how impactful a single word can be. On how the greatest biomedical agency in the world approaches a quarter of at least the U.S. population and more than a billion people worldwide. And you mentioned, the EEOC. So I know you had a stint at the EEOC kind of talk to us about what you did there and kind of what your thoughts are on the current state of the EEOC.

00:17:55:15 - 00:17:38:17
David
Yeah. So, first just want to make a little quick, quick correction. So, at the National Institutes of Health, each agency had an EEO office. And so I'm that one where I were, how I was within the EEO office which took took directive from the EEOC. So we work under all the EEOC laws and regulations and, and stuff.

00:17:38:22 - 00:18:01:11
David
So I'm fully aware of EEO laws and requirement regulation and stuff like that. So I'd be happy to answer the question. Can you repeat that question real quick?

00:17:54:17 - 00:18:08:13
Julie
Yeah. You know, where what are your thoughts on kind of the current state of the EEOC with the changes in executive orders and enforcement, Under the new administration?

00:18:01:13 - 00:18:33:29
David
Yeah. If if not, it had not been easy. And there obviously they're not at quorum right now, they don't have, enough commissions to make decisions. Unfortunately, I fortunately we still have some of the, the judges and, administrative judges that are there that are still carrying out some cases and stuff. But as far as appeals go, that usually goes up to the commissions level where they vote on the field, but there's not a quorum right now unable to do that.

00:18:33:29 - 00:19:10:27
David
That's on a broad scale, not just for disability employment by for all discrimination across our law out here in the United States. So I think the biggest challenge we're having right now is that the law is law. And, I know that some people, think that things are not being followed in the law, but I, I fully believe that our justice system in the United States, I mean, there's there's so much reach or the United States does have a long justice system.

00:19:11:01 - 00:19:40:21
David
It takes from the start of justice to when actually justice happens, it tends to be very lengthy. And I'm still hanging on to that thing, hanging on my hat on that, that, you know, eventually, it might be three, four or five years from now, eventually thing that, may have been, you know, against the law or something that may have been decided that wasn't quite the precedent of what happened before.

00:19:40:28 - 00:20:24:08
David
We'll get resolved in a later and a later time. But the biggest, the biggest challenge we're having right now is the language around DEI, the misconception, diversity, equity and inclusion, the sole fact that there is this idea that people are getting jobs because they are a particular race or because of they're a particular gender, it has always and still continues to be against the law to give a give someone a job, basis of race, sex, gender, national origin, color, and and age.

00:20:24:08 - 00:20:49:20
David
Yeah. I would just think about an age. And when we sit there and think about it, if we remove DEI in there, your sort of taken away all the work that we made and the progress that we made through that and where the progress was being made, was in our targeted outreach that, I mean, we know that there are qualified individuals in the United States.

00:20:49:21 - 00:22:13:22
David
We need them to know that, hey, we have job openings and going to career fairs, going to, different universities, different universities across the United States and letting them know about my particular case, the National Institute of Health. That has been the biggest challenge, because that right there, that effort put all of them under the umbrella of DEI and, by that is the biggest challenge we're having right now within the EEO office.

00:21:29:10 - 00:22:06:18
Julie
Yeah. I think that's a perfect summary. So as we're thinking about, you know, kind of what we're seeing at Disability Solutions is we've seen a lot less pullback in there in talent acquisition spending, in our community, which is really, really positive. We're seeing a lot of companies go quiet, so to speak. If you were working with a CEO and or a company and they're really committed to continuing to do the work, even in this current environment, you know, what would kind of be your top suggestions to support both?

00:22:06:20 - 00:22:22:08
Julie
I would say on the job seeker side. So on the applicant side, and then once you have employees with disabilities in the door and addressing some of their concerns over kind of the current state of affairs.

00:22:13:24 - 00:22:48:00
David
Yeah. I think the, the number one thing, the CEO's can do is communicate to their staff that they are still committed to this. I know that, there is this sense of publicity, like, publicly saying that I'm committed to that. Well, I think that you can do that. That does help. But I think what helps more is talking directly to your employees, saying that we are still committed and and that and we will continue to do, to look forward to building employment, making more accessible.

00:22:48:03 - 00:23:14:08
David
Because when, when, when we look at data, you know, NIH is, you know, big in data like we have scientists everywhere. They, if I make a suggestion, they say, show me the data, David. And there is data, actual data out there that shows that that organizations that really commit in a disability employment see greater revenue, greater shareholder profit.

00:23:14:10 - 00:23:36:03
David
And then they also seen greater satisfaction from their staff, their entire staff, not just individuals with that ability. And the reason for that is because you're allowing people to bring their whole self and to the workplace. That means that if I have an intellectual disability or if I have, a disability, I can bring my whole self and can bring ideas that

00:23:36:03 - 00:23:55:28
David
I may have learned through navigating and navigating my life as a disabled individual, and I'd be able to apply it to the workplace. A great example of it, and I know we talked about that early in our earlier discussion, was the electric toothbrush, we think about the electric toothbrush and we take it for granted that, oh, it's just a little motor.

00:23:55:28 - 00:24:22:03
David
And dentists might say that we must do it. But that was invented for people that had mobility issues. And so when we think about it now, everyone pretty much you need an electric toothbrush. And it's universally made for everyone. So we as a society have benefited for something that was there to help individuals with mobility issues. That is the kind of mindset that, you know, our CEOs need to be thinking of.

00:24:22:03 - 00:24:44:04
David
They need to be thinking of. All right. So where are some of the barriers? Because when we talk about 30% of individuals, in the world, 30% of people have a daptability, in some shape or form, some disability. So they are your customers too. So can you just imagine if you didn't, you were not accessible and you basically said, no, we're not going to.

00:24:44:04 - 00:25:07:01
David
You're adjustable, you're losing out on 30% on your customer base. And so that is critical to look at that. And then on top of that, if you are having a competitor that, you know, if we're saying a financial institution, let's say two banks together, on top of that, you're providing more accessible tools for people that go into banking. Guess where individuals with disabilities are going to go?

00:25:07:05 - 00:25:38:23
David
They're going to go to a place that has the more accessible banking than the one that that not. So you're basically expanding your customers. You're basically ensuring that you keep your customers. You're making sure that your employees feel safe and feel, feel as if they have contributing to your mission at your organization.

00:25:36:02 - 00:26:25:08
Julie
Yeah. I think that's such a great point. One both the innovation of people with disabilities, but also the brand commitment. And so I would be really curious to your perspective, as we've seen sort of this, I hate the word backlash, but the pushback against DEI and what I consider to be a pretty rapid regression of companies who previously purported to or performatively talked about supporting diversity, diverse communities, you know, what are your thoughts on how their brands are going to be impacted in the long term, as we see them pull back on these commitments they've made to all of all of the underserved communities over the last few years.

00:26:18:12 - 00:26:44:24
David
Yeah. I mean, this is where I wish I were, I had Marty McFly from Back to The Future. Be able to go see the future a little bag. But, what I think is going to happen is we're going to see in one, two, three years what they're missing out on. And not only missing out on, on the on the talent side by on the consumer side, we're already seeing it somewhat.

00:26:44:24 - 00:27:11:26
David
And again, there is evidence out there that they're, the footprint at Target had dropped tremendously due to their just commitment. And if you watch the news at all, there was sort of a backtrack from that. And I think there's some power and collective, collective, community, you know, choosing to spend the money where they believe in the values of that organization or that company.

00:27:11:28 - 00:27:38:27
David
But I really do think I'm going to see what's going to happen. And what I'm seeing now, the trend is that , things are going quiet. They're quietly removing it, or if they're quietly staying under the radar, that they're still communted to it, but maybe they place it somewhere or maybe they're placing it in a procurement or placing it in OHR, or placing in it somewhere else rather than in its own activity of DEI. 

00:27:39:00 - 00:28:03:18
David
But I challenge those that are listening here to really look at where you're shopping. I'd give you a perfect example. Ikea. They are. They've doubled down on it. Costco they have doubled down on it. And it's not about it's not about like, you know, them...

00:28:03:21 - 00:28:30:04
David 
I think what more powerful to me is that they see the value in it, and they're not going to remove something that's going to make their company less efficient or make their company, if we move the dollars amount, They have less talent. They want the best and the best at that organization. And then I hate to break it to some people, but people with that disabilities are some of the best, brightest minds I've ever known.

00:28:30:06 - 00:28:45:27
David
And, having them in your organization is going to make your organization so much stronger and better.

00:28:43:08 - 00:29:05:23
Julie
Yeah, absolutely. And I, I promise I have not stepped foot in a Target since they pulled back. And there are a couple Target things I really, really miss. But now I've broken the habit. So I think it's even just a longer term of. I'm not shopping there for right now. By the time they recommit, then I'll have found those things other places.

00:29:05:23 - 00:29:32:22
Julie
And so it's a long term impact. And I think that we are at a place of sophistication and maturity as a, as a community that we are starting to really see through the, the charade or the facade a lot. And I think you just make excellent points. And so this has been such a fun conversation. David, I really appreciate you and Brianna joining me.

00:29:32:24 - 00:29:55:13
Julie
And, you know, as we wrap up, I always like to leave with two questions. And the first one is, what is one thing, and you might have just told me, because I love your innovation conversation. What's one thing you could tell a CEO that will change their mind about hiring talent with disabilities?

00:29:49:17 - 00:30:12:03
David
One thing that I can give is actually something that my boss has given me. Is giving me the freedom and the opportunity to be the best version of myself, and not to hold and limit anyone because of their disability. I'm hard of hearing. I am profoundly deaf in my left ear. My right ear. We go to meetings all the time.

00:30:12:03 - 00:30:42:27
David
I answer the phone. I have technology to handle that. There is never been one once where my boss has said, can you do this? No, my boss believe that I will be able to do that and they believed in me. I think that it's such a powerful thing, that you give your employees if they are, especially if they're looking to motivated to be developed in their career, give them every opportunity to be the best version of themeselves, and that is really just believing in them and allowing them to be the best version of themselves.

00:30:50:06 - 00:31:05:18
Julie
Now, I love that I see that in a different direction than I anticipated when you would go. So then last question is, what is something that someone did for you in your life that helped change your life?

00:30:59:17 - 00:31:21:29
David
I, I honestly think, it was it was during a time of difficult conversation. I mean, you know, a lot of people don't like uncomfortable, conversations. I have gone I've gotten better at it. And it was during a time of, a uncomfortable situation where I had to go in and talk to my, this is a different back in the time.

00:31:22:07 - 00:31:41:25
David
And he basically sat me down. David, you know, we need to do to do this a little bit differently. We need to have better outcome. We need to do we need, you know, set you up for success, we need to do different training and, and whatever. He didn't look at me and saying, I need to never send that.

00:31:41:27 - 00:32:20:11
David
I'm not meeting. I'm not meeting the job. He never said, you know, I can't. He basically said that there are some shortcomings that you have right now and let's look at how we can invest in you to get better at those things. And that was very, very early in my career. I'm talking the first 1 or 2 years, and I've learned from that moment on that if I don't know something, I just get educated on and I either read a book, do a training, or go to a webinar, to YouTube, listen to a podcast to get educated on the particular thing that I may be lacking.

00:32:20:14 - 00:33:04:05
David
And I challenge everyone out there that embrace sometimes those uncomfortable conversations. Embrace them to the fact that you're listening to the the feedback to make you better versus to the negative feedback that, oh, I'm not improving on that. That's just your point of view. Look at it as an opportunity to really, foster your career in any direction that you want to go in.

00:32:54:20 - 00:33:11:23
Julie
Yeah. Great point. And we have far too few leaders who spend the time to do that development with their employees. And I'm glad that you got that experience. So, David, if someone wants to connect with you, how do they find you?

00:33:04:08 - 00:33:25:14
David
Yeah. You can find me on LinkedIn. Disability by David, basically what I do is I tried you every few, every few days or so. I like to try to give a post that talks about disability innovation. A lot of it stems from the book that I read from, Bob Ludke, which case studies on disability innovation.

00:33:25:17 - 00:33:54:07
David
And, and really, I'm trying I'm trying to do is at least raise the awareness that disability employment is not a charity-based idea, disability employment is an assets-based idea. They're giving, you are giving your organization the best assets, and the best minds to be able to make your organization succeed. And it just sometimes that it takes giving them the chance.

00:33:54:09 - 00:34:03:11
David
Give them the opportunity and you'll be. And it'll be wonders to see where your organization goes when you do get that chance to them.

00:34:07:17 - 00:34:37:24
Julie
All right, so, David Rice on LinkedIn. Thank you, David, for joining us. Thank you, Brianna, for joining us. Another great conversation here at Changing Minds & Changing Lives. And before we go, I just wanted to let you guys know that our Q2 2025 webinar is going to be June 17th at 12 p.m. Eastern. Our topic is going to be, a review of the first 150 days of the new administration and its impact on disability rights and disability employment.

00:34:38:01 - 00:34:51:14
Julie
We'll pop the link in the show notes. And if you're catching this after the fact, don't worry, you can still go to our website, Disabilitytalent.org and catch the replay. Until then, we'll see you next time. Thanks.