CMCL Interview: Holly O'Hern

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Hi everyone. Welcome back to Changing Minds and Changing Lives podcast Videocast. Hopefully you're seeing this on video too. My name is Julie, so I am the founder and now strategic advisor for Disability Solutions and luckily enough, still the podcast host for Changing Minds and Changing Lives. So excited about some of the shows that we've had this year.

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Already excited about the ones that are coming up, but very, very excited to revisit a conversation and a guest that we had last year. And to kind of dive into the topic of grieving today and grieving at work. So I'm so privileged and so honored to welcome back to the podcast for her second and hopefully not last visit, Holly O'Hern, who again is the owner of Regime Change.

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She's a keynote speaker, entrepreneur where she facilitates amazing trainings with organizations and groups around the country, the world. On Courageous Leadership DB intergenerational teams and grief at work. So welcome back, Holly. Thanks for agreeing to join us again.

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Oh. I was so looking forward to this. Thanks for having me back, Julie.

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Yeah, absolutely. So what's new since we chatted last time, anything to add to your list of, incredible accomplishment and work that you focus on?

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Oh. Thank you. Yeah. And actually, just in case anyone didn't join last time. I'll just add that I'm in Chicago. I, also, my pronouns are she, her, hers. And I'll do a visual introduction to, I'm a white woman, a Caucasian woman with long red hair, and I'm wearing sort of like a, I don't know, a taupe colored sweater with some, like, faux pearls on the arms.

00:01:51:21 - 00:02:10:22

I was feeling a little, I was excited, I was like, I was like, I need a nice shirt for Julie. And then I have an office setting behind me that has plants and books. So, that's my little intro. And yet things have been good over here. I've been doing, yeah. All the things you said. I've been doing a lot of the Brené Brown Dare to lead work.

00:02:10:24 - 00:02:28:04

And one thing that I'm actually, in the process of is adding the word coach to my title. So I'm going through a coaching program that, is, is, tied with the Dare to Lead work. But I'm learning a lot about coaching that I never knew what it was. And I'm excited about how that alone failed.

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So, in terms of, my little headline, watch this space, because I'll have another word to get to add to it. But, yeah, things, overall, still really enjoying working for myself and, really enjoying all the topics that you mentioned as well to.

00:02:43:08 - 00:03:15:20

Awesome. Awesome. So, one other thing that kind of caught my attention when I was prepping to. To chat with you today is you are still using DEIB in your description. And one thing that, if you've heard me talk lately, I've been very frustrated about is that we're seeing such a quick willingness to move away from terms that we've been committed to working towards for at least the last decade.

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Why are you still using DB, and how do you feel, if you don't mind sharing, with. The, the. I will say the lack of courageous leadership in our own community. For people who are just willing to throw away that the words that have helped define us and define our communities for the last ten or so years.

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Yeah. I appreciate you asking. And that this is something you think about in this way. Yeah. I, I, gosh, so much I can say. And by the way, I it was part of why I, I was excited to come talk to you again, because I remember you and I talked about the idea last time I was here, too.

00:04:01:22 - 00:04:36:14

And, it's just interesting to see how things have evolved. You know, for me, I think I'm trying not to do, first of all, any, like, quick moves, snap judgment kind of things. Not and not not as a judgment of people who feel that they need to make some quick decisions, of course. But for me, there's a lot of like, let's see, like a lot of times when I worry about things, I try to play out all the different scenarios that could happen as opposed to the worst case scenario.

00:04:36:16 - 00:04:56:05

So part of it is like, I don't want to listen just to my anxiety. And the other part, well, there's lots of parts. But another part is it feels like a way that my the power and privilege I have in society can be helpful for for ones like, like. And there are a lot of ways power privilege can be helpful.

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But I think in DEIB settings, a lot of times power and privilege are brought up and people feel shame about those words. And certainly there's been a lot of harm related to people's power and privilege that happens. But for me, it's like, okay, you know, there's there's maybe less risk to me and being bold and keeping this, this title in this mission than someone else.

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And maybe, maybe that's something I can do, even if I am scared at different times right now. And I do think a lot about how some people might not want to drop that language, but feel like they have to because of the lack of power privilege they might have or protection they might feel they have, in their lived experience.

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So anyway, I will say that if I were to ever change it, it would be for words that I felt people that matched better in the current times. And that's something that's still on my mind. I don't have any plans to drop it or change it, but like if I did, I am open to if at some point the field evolves to, well, maybe some of those words weren't helping our mission any way because of the way people were hearing them or the way they were stigmatized.

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And maybe there's a new word or phrase that fits our goals that people can hear better. I'm open to if that ever feels right. At some point. But also it would be different than sneaking or hiding if that was the case. Does that make sense?

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It does, it doesn't. And I mean, I think you make a really good point. One is a good clarification, because a lot of the people I see not being courageous right now are those of us. And I will include myself and you in. We have power and we have privilege. And it's it feels to me we're kind of the first ones that are pulling back and that, in my humble opinion, needs to be called to the to the, to the carpet.

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Because we have built businesses around it. We've built personas and personalities and products and to just step back from that and, and with that privilege where we don't have to, I think, hurts my heart in a way that's harder for me to explain to someone who is outside of this work. The other thing that I, I hear you say, and I, I want to make sure that I'm clear.

00:07:37:00 - 00:08:09:16

I, I do agree that we are always evolving. We should be evolving. And there are some things that we've done as a community that have not been helpful, that have, caused further stigmatization. I think that when we allow opposing groups to weaponize the words that we hold dear, it's harder for me to say, let's just give, let let's just give on those, because that's the goal.

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The goal with weaponizing DEI or DEIB was to force us to stop using them. That's the goal. And when we do that, we allow for further weaponization against more marginalized communities, less protected communities, people who have no voice in so many ways. So I think I, I appreciate you letting me, I guess, kind of cosmetically have that conversation with you.

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And I, I think probably this whole podcast will be a cathartic conversation for me. If I remember correctly, last time we spoke, that's kind of how I approached it. You're like my counselor, Holly. So let's get into actually what we're supposed to be talking about

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Yeah. Thank you for that. I, I want to be in spaces where people are talking about this, so. Thank you. Yes.

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So last time that we were together, we started talking about grief. And, you know, in transparency to our audience and our listeners. If you don't know me. Well, seven years ago this month, I lost, my brother, my oldest brother to to suicide. And I, for the first time started thinking about grieving in a different way.

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And, you know, in my, in my past, I had lost grandparents and, and, you know, older people in my life, which is never easy, but it doesn't come necessarily as a kind of a shock to the system. And I realized that no matter who we lose at work, kind of what we're expected to do is show up after three days and be our regular selves to feel fine, to be as productive, to ready to jump back into those meetings and start talking about the widgets we're building or the sales we're making or whatever it is.

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And that's a really, really big ask for someone who is in this case, let's start with grief, the loss of a a person in their lives. So kind of tell me, as a person who who teaches and facilitates conversations around grief at work, what's some of the guidance that you give to leaders and coworkers? Because I think that they would be as mutually important to that support network.

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When someone is grieving at work.

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Yeah. I, and thank you for sharing some of your personal journey, by the way. I think the more people do that, the less alone it helps other people feel. And actually, I will just pause because you were, kind to share that. I'm thinking of anyone listening who's maybe lost someone or is grieving something hard right now.

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So I just want to acknowledge both you and anyone who's sort of, like, absorbing this right now. For anything that might be felt or anything anyone might be missing. And I guess I would say if anyone, you know, I'd say I'd say to anyone listening or reading or however they're accessing the podcast is to take care of yourself as you need to.

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And you could always come back to this if you needed to later. So I'll say that too. I, I would say the biggest thing people could do is to try not to assume things about other people related to grief at work. And I'll start with something that you've already alluded to is that there are many kinds of grief.

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Right? So, you know, I might have a death in my family that doesn't impact me that much for, for whatever reason. Right. And, you know, maybe coworkers might treat me, you know, give me a lot of grace there, but then they don't give me a lot of grace about something that is actually very hard for me that's happening, but isn't recognized by the world as as as big a deal.

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Right. And there's many other versions of this. Right. So, Oh, and I'll give you an example there, like, I had I had a loss of pet that that rocked my world a few years ago. That changed me forever. And, you know, someone else that might not impact them the same way. Or they might. They might not, you know, someone might not understand that or whatever.

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Right. So it's just an example of there's many things any of us might impact as each differently that, we might assume that it's going to impact someone a certain way, but that's, you know, different about lived experience. I'd say another thing is people often project on each other their preferences and so or their own discomfort. I don't think our society has taught us well about how to hold hard emotions that other people have.

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And so sometimes people will give people what they think is respectful space when they're grieving, but it actually may come across as avoidance in isolation. And so that could be another. Either it could be an assumption or a projection, a lot of reasons, and I don't mean to sound judgy in that, because I know people have good intentions and and in why they do whatever they do with coworkers.

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Right. But, a lot of times people need connection, not space. And of course, that's a generalization. Anyway, it's so funny because I'm thinking of a broad spectrum of everything I'm answering or talking about, but, it's so it's so subjective. Actually. I guess that's the answer, isn't it? It's so selective. Yeah.

00:14:00:10 - 00:14:28:22

Yeah. No, I mean, absolutely. You know, as as someone who are pet parents, right? I, I can empathize with you in a way that's different than someone who's maybe not a pet parent. I lost my my big girl just late last year. So you're hitting me on all the parts today? And and there was a lot of avoidance about talking about my brother, about.

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So, about whatever that is, because and and I think that we do the same thing. We see if I can make a clear transition here. I think that we do the same thing when there's a, a demographic characteristic or an identity characteristic, maybe that we're not comfortable with. Right. We give space because we're not sure how to engage a person who's blind or engage a person who's from a different culture, because we haven't had that experience.

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And so we we kind of avoid that interaction and we fail to integrate people into our lives, whether they're going through this process of grieving or because it's something that we are not comfortable with as humans, because we haven't figured out how to emotionally manage those types of interactions. So, I mean, I think there's just so much that you could unpack there.

00:15:28:03 - 00:15:52:18

Yeah. That was really well said. And. Yeah, I mean. It. Yeah, I think there's also just, like, things. Things we were taught are acceptable and things we were taught that aren't acceptable, related to grief. And there's, I don't know, like, there can almost be some, like, I know guilt is the word or what, but like, I'll give one more example.

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So, about ten years ago, I had this, like year of my life where I lost. I had about 4 or 5 deaths in my life, and the one that hit me the hardest was not a blood relative. And this is some workplace stuff, you know, like in terms of, probably I people thought I should have been more distraught about the blood relatives who passed, but it it's humans.

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We just have different relationships with everyone. And the person who, who I had the hardest time with was like a family member to me, you know, and so, you know, of course, also our workplace policy was, you didn't get time off for someone who wasn't a blood relative. Luckily, I had a I had a manager who said, I can tell this person is family to you, so take the time you need.

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Which does not always happen. And it definitely changed my relationship with my manager, for the positive that that they responded. But like, I do think there's something about when people share something that's going on with you, there's certain things as a society, we just judge should be the harder thing that's happening. Of the things people are saying, and I, I wish we could find a way to to not program people with those kind of messages because, like, life is going to surprise you, like, like you.

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You don't know what's going to be the hardest yet. You know?

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Yeah. Well, and I think that's I mean, it's such an interesting point because. How do you ask or how what's the the appropriate response? I'm not even sure. It's like your, your family member who passed away versus your, like a family member who passed away. If I'm, if I'm a leader, if I'm a coworker, am I supposed to say poorly?

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How are you feeling? You know, how can I help it? Or am I supposed to, wait for you to feel empowered to tell me? Like, what's what's the cadence there? As a coworker or as a leader? And and I will tell you, this is something I've struggled with as a leader, just because when I've been through this with people who, you know, work for me or work with me, I have this inclination to always ask, like, how are you?

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What's happening? You know, those kind of things. And I'll do it a few times. And I know there's still those underlying, hey, I'm, I'm upset, but am I supposed to make it fresh again? Am I supposed to keep continually, like, taking the scab off you know what I'm saying? It's like, tell me or give that. Give our listeners some guidance about not assuming.

00:18:39:20 - 00:18:52:17

I think that's the perfect first one. Right? If we can take anything away from the conversation we have before is assumptions. Do exactly what assumptions do and then what's the next step after we start making those assumptions?

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Yeah. So of course it'll be specific to the relationship. And also we're going to mess up. So let me also just say that before I give any like ideal kind of responses is like being a human is messy. And trying to be in relationship with other humans is messy. And we're going to learn from when we don't do it right too.

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So I'll I'll just say that, for me, I'm going to use a word that doesn't get brought into conversations like this a lot, but I think it's totally related. Is the word consent? I think a lot about checking what's okay. Would it be okay if I ask you about your brother Julie? Like, would you like to talk about your fur baby that you missed?

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You know, like or not? You know what I mean? Like, before we get into whatever we needed to talk about today, how are you doing? Is there any way I can support you? Would it be helpful to share a memory? Would it be helpful if I share about a loss I've been through? All of these things are just instead of launching it, would it be helpful?

00:20:04:05 - 00:20:25:21

Would you like a hug? Maybe not. You know what I mean? Like, right. Like it's to me and I even think about this in many space. I think about this with like unsolicited advice. I think about this. And somebody is I may have a thing coming up in me that I think I should do. I could maybe it might be fine to do it, but let me check before I do it.

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You know what I mean? Like let me offer it as opposed to launch into the thing I think, like, would it be helpful to hear a platitude? You know what I mean? Like, everything that went wrong with that could happen because people don't know they're doing that. But like, you know what I mean? Like, it's it's checking.

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Yeah. No. I think that is a beautiful point. And something I have not thought of before. It's really just. I have tried to emotionally feel out how I'm supposed to react. And so much of that is my own grief, my own experiences, my own expectations that I'm not really emotionally checking in with the person who's actually grieving at that moment at all, because they're we're back to those assumptions, and I assume, and then I assume, how I'm supposed to act.

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And so I think consent is a is a freely powerful word there. I think that could go into all of our kind of standard practices on more than just grief, but especially on grief in this conversation. Thank you for that. I, I'm just processing because that that really sits with me.

00:21:36:21 - 00:21:58:08

I'm so glad. Can I add one more thing? You mentioned about sort of like reopening a wound. I think that is a very common fear people have about bringing something up. Is I don't want to upset this person. It's part of why I think the laying on of the consent, you know, people will tell you I can't talk about that today.

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You know what I mean? Like, they know what they can't do. But I found the more, the more people I've connected with, the more grievers I've talked to is. And of course, this is, you know, a generalization and there could be exceptions to this is more people wish people would ask rather than not. And many people are like, I didn't forget that this hard thing happened.

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Like no one's making me remember. Like it's never not in my mind right now. And especially in, like those like the fresher times, though, as we know, grief is a journey and can be hard much later for many reasons too. But, it's this idea of like, you know, I think even in some workplaces people might worry about, like policies around any of that and like, like if it's okay to bring something up, that's hard because it might, you know, it might be traumatic for the person.

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But I really do think that in the case of grief, more times than not, it's you're seeing someone is what you're doing as a full person. And rather than like, they didn't forget, you know what I mean? Like, you're you're, It's not it often isn't a reopening a wound. It's often more. I'll use this analogy of acknowledging there's a wound that some people, it seems like many people are ignoring that there's a wound.

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So, yeah.

00:23:23:17 - 00:24:03:18

I think that's a great point. And. And in your in your conversations with, with leaders, are you giving any guidance on how grief policies should be implemented or something that you said earlier that really stood out to me? Some guidance around, manager discretion. I think that's a powerful tool that is often really, really overlooked when we're thinking about anything HR, policy, people, policy related, and something that I've struggled with with former employers.

00:24:03:18 - 00:24:18:07

And like, I know this person needs this. I need to be able to approve this time off because I know this relationship didn't fit in your box, but it was important. Talk to me a little bit about that.

00:24:18:07 - 00:24:40:09

I don't go too far into policies. Mostly because I get too mad. I. I'm, like, the kind of person who's like, burn it all down, you know, or, or just, like, do it different. Like what? Like, you know what I mean? But I will shout out, there's a company I've been that's been on my radar that's doing really cool work in that space.

00:24:40:09 - 00:25:03:00

They're called B reef. B e r e b e and they're great LinkedIn fellow. They're doing some really cool stuff that they're literally offering support to companies around adjusting policies with grief. I'm actually going to collab and do a training for them actually in the spring. So, they're they're just cool. So there are people who are getting into that, like, lens of it.

00:25:03:02 - 00:25:30:18

I would say though, if I, if I could ever counsel someone who has influence over policies, I would. I would say like, how could you build in manager discretion just to policies in general? You know what I mean? There's just like I mean, really there's so many deep topics we could get into of like, you know, like what makes a disruptive employee or like what?

00:25:30:18 - 00:25:46:23

Like, you know, why is someone having trouble on the job and what things are on the job maybe led up to that? And what kind of interventions are there before we're getting into disciplinary action? I know this is a whole nother topic, but that's my point is there's so many things that like, are we doing audits periodically of our policies?

00:25:46:23 - 00:26:09:09

Are we using a DB lens? Are we bringing in? We talked about this before like our ERGs and BGS for how we're looking at these things. The other thing I'll add is just how do we how do we expand our definitions and understanding over time? Because that's just how humans work is we know better, we do better over time.

00:26:09:09 - 00:26:45:03

And how are we then pausing with our policies on that, like, you know, grief, grief. I mean, we we've acknowledged we could spend so much time talking about grief. We could probably go into any sub topics, but like it's also about much more than physical loss, right? I don't know how you build all that into your policies, but I do hope that people making policies work to understand that is, you know, after layoffs, there can be intense grief because there wasn't necessarily the closure that there could have been, and it wasn't how people would have chosen how this would have gone right.

00:26:45:03 - 00:27:07:24

There's there's like so many kinds of grief. I mean, in the pandemic, there was so much grief. And and also after the pandemic, there was a lot of grief. Many world events can be things that are. And so this is why I don't delve into policies is I just want to like, I get into all of like the emotion of it all, and you need some other things brought into the mix to really shift policy as well.

00:27:07:24 - 00:27:20:10

But that may not be my skill set, but I hope that we're continuing to learn and expand how we're thinking about things, including grief. And I hope that that contract to trickle into things like policies and procedures.

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Yeah. Yes, I

00:27:25:20 - 00:27:28:11

really meant many cans of many words.

00:27:28:11 - 00:27:50:10

I have that kind of time. But you. You said kind of where I wanted to go next. Is that something I've learned through my journey over the past? I don't know, years of being an adult is that we grieve things that are not necessarily loss of physical entities.

00:27:50:14 - 00:28:33:04

Our families, our friends, our our pets, or the, you know, the people that we, the entities that we love. And I think a lot of us right now, especially in underrepresented, got a very a feeling attacked right now. Demographic groups and those of us that thought there was a different future ahead of us. For me as an American are grieving right now and that's opening up not just grief that I think a lot of times is completely unacknowledged.

00:28:33:04 - 00:29:31:16

Grief by the person who's going through it, because they don't understand that this is a grieving process, certainly not by our leaders or our coworkers. Acknowledged grief. But also. We don't have the capacity as humans to figure out how to manage a future that's different than we expected. And how can we, as people who. Are coming from a place of power, of privilege, likely doing our own set of grieving here, acknowledge our own grief, but then also acknowledge and support communities who are going through pretty scary and pretty tough times right now, and help them to.

00:29:31:18 - 00:29:50:09

And I hate this. I am kind of going off on a on a tangent, but I like going through how do you still help them show up at work and getting things done that they need to because they so we we also families we have to take care of. We also have bills we have to pay. But we're going through this collective trauma.

00:29:50:11 - 00:30:20:17

I think right now. And and first, I guess we need to acknowledge that it is grief and that it is something that we're mourning as a community. And then how do we support each other to get through it to the other side of it? I don't even know, like, clearly this conversation. I'm using you to kind of voice my thoughts out loud, where I've really struggled with my own grieving process and how to be supportive.

00:30:20:19 - 00:30:27:09

At this point, what what's kind of guidance around non-entity grief? I guess let me just go back to the basics.

00:30:27:12 - 00:30:53:16

No. Yeah. I'm tracking with everything you just said. You bring up an important perspective that in the realm of grief, there's often this category of the future. We thought we were going to have. And I'll. I'll come back to where your you were headed. But I'll also, just as an aside, sure that, this is another deep intersection.

00:30:53:16 - 00:31:19:18

Of course, everything everything is, that people who have experienced a lot of discrimination in their life have, have versions of that, too, right? Of, you know, what life might they have got to have if, you know, there hadn't been microaggressions layered upon them all the time, right? Or you know, anyways, lots of lots of examples I could give.

00:31:19:20 - 00:31:46:22

And. I mean, even if in our lives, like certain things we lose, certain things we expected would be in our life or parts of our identity that we thought were going to be our identity. We might lose, you know? So, I bet a lot I bet a lot of people will relate to the conversation we're having, regardless of if they're thinking about like like the, I don't want to say politics.

00:31:46:22 - 00:32:18:15

I want to say just like world events, you know what I mean? But there's there's, I think many versions of this even too, that that will be related. But, you know, to, to me, I would say the how can actually then come from listening to people who have had less power and privilege and I and I'm going to say something that's not directed at you, Julie, but I think I think you could handle it from what I know about you.

00:32:18:15 - 00:32:36:23

But I mean this more just from a group of people and myself are included. I think, for some of us. And also, I should acknowledge, I'm going to be talking a little bit about America. And I realize that there's many things happening in the world beyond our country. And also people in other parts of the world may have things that this resonates still for them, too.

00:32:36:23 - 00:33:06:05

So, is some of us are only now feeling something that people have felt for a while. Right? Like. And so then that means that we're not the first people to navigate these hard emotions, right? We're not the first people to have to endure. You know this. I'm not thinking you don't. Right. But like, how do we learn from people that are like, yeah, let's look back at our history books and, and look at the collective grief that we've had to overcome.

00:33:06:05 - 00:33:31:08

That was just as big and hard, you know what I mean? Or made me lose faith in my company, country, country or company. You know what I mean? Like like like I think there's a lot more of the I don't want to say not reinventing the wheel because it's such a cliche, but like, how do we tap into the wisdom of and how do we learn from people who have been so some of this coming way before some of us did.

00:33:31:08 - 00:34:05:13

Right, like, I think that's where the coming together of different groups of people is even more important. And then I'll say the umbrella thing on top of all of this is, I believe, learning to regulate our own nervous systems because no one can do the best care for themselves until they've done like like in terms of decisions, etc. and when actions and how we show up anywhere at work or wherever is if we're not able to get out of fight or flight.

00:34:05:15 - 00:34:34:03

And actually so it's only some conversation is really, there, you know, there's that's even expanded in definition. There's actually more than just fight or flight now, that we could delve into, but for, for, for ease of the conversation, we'll use that. And just the idea of, you know, we could learn a lot from each other about, like, you know, what regulates my nervous system might be not not what regulates yours, but in in talking more about that together, we might get more ideas, right.

00:34:34:05 - 00:34:59:20

Like for me, it might be breathing activities. For you it might be, getting outside. Right. Like, but a lot of these things get us back to. Okay. Now, what do I need now? What is the right next decision? How do I show up authentically and still take care of all the things I need to? But I think I think the problem with.

00:34:59:22 - 00:35:23:12

You know, I'm choosing words intentionally. I think the problem with how a lot of the environments that you and I are in right now is I think they're designed to keep us scared and anxious so that we can't even tap into our own inner wisdom, let alone connect with other people on it. So it's I think we gotta make the time, even if it's a few moments to do that more often.

00:35:23:14 - 00:35:27:22

I know I just said a lot of things. I don't even know if I totally answered your question.

00:35:27:22 - 00:36:05:21

You gave me lots of things to say back about that. No, I well, first, I want to thank you for acknowledging and centering what I was trying to to get out. And you're absolutely right. Is that as as a white woman with hidden disabilities, like my current grief has been a decade long. However, it is short in the time frame of of actual other communities, right, who've lived with a future that they deserve to have and has been withheld from them for a long time.

00:36:05:22 - 00:36:42:24

So we need to acknowledge that. We can learn from each other and that we are stronger together, and that I'm not dismissing my own grief by acknowledging someone else has a very different and and in a lot of ways, prolonged or more significant experience. And I think sometimes, when we come from a place of privilege and we hear things like the conversation you and I are having right now and I'm so glad we're having it on camera, is it's easy for one of us to get defensive and go, okay, well, I don't fit in that group.

00:36:43:00 - 00:37:13:11

So what I feel doesn't matter. No, that's absolutely not what what either of us are saying right now is that you get to have your own process, but there's hundreds of years of history in this country alone that could be mourned, that is being mourned. And we can now have empathy in a way that we couldn't before. It's different.

00:37:13:14 - 00:37:41:20

It's not the same, but we can have empathy with groups who have been through a similar grieving process and we can. I don't like the word used, but we can learn from what those groups and those individuals have done to collectively move through their grief. And I think that's just really important to acknowledge. And I thank you for doing that.

00:37:41:22 - 00:38:08:05

I think the other thing is trying to figure out in a way, again, that doesn't sound cliche. You talked about things that we have to do for our own mental safety, right? For our own mental health. And I think that sometimes I'm going to say something out loud. We may have to cut this out later, but I think sometimes, again, I'm just going to come from my own privilege.

00:38:08:07 - 00:38:42:20

Is that especially in chaotic political or societal environments, we feel guilty about taking care of ourselves. We feel guilty for saying, you know what, you can't watch eight hours of the news today. You have to go get on the damn treadmill, which is the thing that's going to make you feel better, because the only way that you can keep in the fight is to protect your space.

00:38:42:22 - 00:39:06:02

And I think if I'm kind of understanding the collective of what we've said together over the last ten minutes is that we aren't in this alone, we shouldn't assume that our grief is the same as others, but we can work together to find out how to support each other. But to stay in the fight, to keep the energy that we need.

00:39:06:02 - 00:39:27:06

We also have to do what I think a lot of. Again, I'll speak generalizations for Americans, think of as almost a weakness of saying I have to protect myself. And these are the things that I'm choosing to do to protect myself so that I can continue on in the work that I'm doing.

00:39:27:17 - 00:39:54:07

Yeah. Number one, I'm glad you didn't hear me. Is trying to minimize anyone suffering. Because you're absolutely right that all suffering is valid regardless of timeline or, you know. So, I really was saying, how can we find community and solutions in that awareness that we're not the first to go through something, right? So I'm so glad that you heard that and clarified it more.

00:39:54:09 - 00:40:30:15

Yeah, it. I think what I think in the taking care of ourselves, we totally were taught it was selfish. I think also to it's humans. It can be kind of hard just to, to sort out what am I avoiding versus when am I taking care of myself. And to me, it's all about intentionality. Is is my filter is, you know, did I just spend hours watching thing watching TV series is and not even realize the time was passing and not even choose that intentionally?

00:40:30:17 - 00:40:57:20

Or did I say I gotta turn off my brain? I'm going to. I'm going to watch bunch TV. That to me that's the difference, right? It's like, you know, am I do I want to be taking politically active actions and doing phone calls right now, or do I not have capacity for that? To ask yourself that question is not then avoiding because you're literally thinking, what is the best way I can use my energy for myself right now so that I have more of it later?

00:40:57:22 - 00:41:20:16

And so if anyone ever is struggling with what's avoidance, what I think it's about just that intentionality and to forgive ourselves when sometimes the avoidance just happens. And then. Well, there was one other thing I wanted to say. Routine results. Definitely checking in with you. Other. I guess it'll it'll come to me and let me pause there.

00:41:20:18 - 00:41:23:08

Do is there a question? I didn't answer that you asked.

00:41:28:15 - 00:41:56:09

Oh, remember, I'm sorry I'm cutting you. Well, I want to just quickly reference to you said the empathy thing. And how things look different is I'm not a huge subscriber to the five stages of grief, because I don't know that they get explained well or understood well. They're not linear. We might skip over some, you might go back to some, but at the end, if anyone is unfamiliar denial, denial, anger, depression, bargaining, acceptance.

00:41:56:09 - 00:42:20:01

And by the way, a new one has been added in recent years of meeting making, some of David Kessler's work, I believe. But what I'll just add, as an aside, as with some of the things we've been talking about, is, I think people forget that anger is part of grief. And an example of that is some of the protests that happened after the murder of George Floyd.

00:42:20:02 - 00:42:37:24

Like people, I saw a lot of people. Society was saying like, that's not helpful or whatever. And listen, who knows what, if anything, is helpful that anyone is doing ever, by the way, right? Like, is it helpful for me to watch TV? I don't know, right. But like, the idea of.

00:42:38:01 - 00:43:09:12

Realizing that there's such a spectrum of emotion any of us might be having and that in the workplace, for example, might an angry employee be might it be grief related? It's just some some things tying in of when we the more we can channel empathy, and the more that we can try to come together and ask each other what we need, what's going on, what's working for us, like how we're handling things just the more options that become available to all of us and that we understand each other a little bit more too.

00:43:09:12 - 00:43:12:03

So I wanted to throw that in the mix.

00:43:12:06 - 00:43:38:03

Yeah. No, I, I mean, I think the anger that's it's that's going to sit well with it, with me. And I think it's going to sit with our our listeners because I think we also try to beat ourselves up and go like, why are you so mad? Why? You know, like, this exact thing didn't happen to you. It's not something you should be mad about.

00:43:38:05 - 00:44:05:05

But I am mad and I am angry. And when I try to to even dismiss my own anger instead of acknowledging it, I don't deal with it. It doesn't go away. It just grows. And I think that's important. You know, we go through in whatever process that we're in, you know, in terms of grieving for whatever reasons. Right now, anger is a part of that.

00:44:05:05 - 00:44:35:11

And I I'm so glad that you said that, because I often forget that when I feel angry, it's okay to feel angry. And when I can recognize why I'm angry, it's not because my husband forgot to buy bread at the grocery store. It's because of these actual underlying things that are happening in my nervous system that I don't know how to calm down, that I don't know how to stop.

00:44:35:11 - 00:44:49:21

And that's reflecting in all of my relationships right now. So I think it's such a beautiful point, and I think it's a kind of a good note to wrap up on. Again, this has been

00:44:50:06 - 00:45:00:07

I like you to. Yeah.

00:45:00:07 - 00:45:27:15

Holly, this is how I feel, and you're going to help me understand, better how I feel. And I hope our listeners take this away. Two. So two things. One is if you were going to just leave one tip out of this amazing conversation that we've had, what is one tip that you would give to our listeners, to support someone who's grieving around them?

00:45:29:00 - 00:46:12:14

I'm going to go an unexpected one. I'm going to say build out your own toolbox of support. Because usually when people are not showing up for others in grief, it's because they that we them, we ourselves can't handle what's coming up for ourselves, really feeling uncomfortable about their grief, etc. and it relates then to everything we've talked about is, you know, the more we can build out what what things could I try that might help myself right now, feel and process my emotions so they don't get stuck in me, will help us support people who are grieving and and help in many other ways to.

00:46:12:14 - 00:46:24:01

Amazing. So last thing. If someone wants to find you, bring you in to help do the for their own grief at work facilitation or small group facilitation. How do they find you?

00:46:24:01 - 00:46:52:13

Best ways are either my website or LinkedIn. So regime change.com is my website, and then LinkedIn is just kind of like my name at the end. Holly O'Hern. I, we could probably throw it somewhere if we needed to related to this. But yeah, and I do I, I will say I, I, I it's not all grief, but but I will say even when it's not, I like that I bring the grief mindset and awareness to whatever.

00:46:52:13 - 00:47:09:21

I mean, like, even if I'm doing like a presentation skills workshop, I'm still aware that there could be people who are grieving in this space and thinking about that. And so it informs a lot of what I do, whether or not that's the training topic. But I sure do love when people want to talk about grief. So, yeah, that's those are the best ways to connect.

00:47:09:24 - 00:47:21:07

Amazing. Amazing. Guys. Again. This will probably be my favorite of 2025. Someone's going to have to try to beat Holly future. Guess I see you got to bring it back.

00:47:21:07 - 00:47:24:06

They will they'll be great. Yeah.

00:47:24:06 - 00:47:30:03

one is going to be hard to beat. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for your time, for your wisdom, for your energy.

00:47:30:04 - 00:47:52:04

Take care of yourself. And I look forward to connecting more. Guys, have a wonderful, day. Thanks for listening. Share this podcast. Connect with Holly. Do what you need to do to take care of yourself and reach out to us. If you're going through this process and this conversation resonated with you, whether it's physical grief or something else.

00:47:52:05 - 00:47:57:03

Let us know. Until then, we'll see you next time on Changing Minds, changing lives.

00:47:57:03 - 00:48:01:15

In.

00:48:02:11 - 00:48:08:12

But it.

00:53:41:08 - 00:54:07:05

Yeah. No, I, I mean, I think the anger that's it's that's going to sit well with it, with me. And I think it's going to sit with our our listeners because I think we also try to beat ourselves up and go like, why are you so mad? Why? You know, like, this exact thing didn't happen to you. It's not something you should be mad about.

00:54:07:07 - 00:54:34:07

But I am mad and I am angry. And when I try to to even dismiss my own anger instead of acknowledging it, I don't deal with it. It doesn't go away. It just grows. And I think that's important. You know, we go through in whatever process that we're in, you know, in terms of grieving for whatever reasons. Right now, anger is a part of that.

00:54:34:07 - 00:55:04:13

And I I'm so glad that you said that, because I often forget that when I feel angry, it's okay to feel angry. And when I can recognize why I'm angry, it's not because my husband forgot to buy bread at the grocery store. It's because of these actual underlying things that are happening in my nervous system that I don't know how to calm down, that I don't know how to stop.

00:55:04:13 - 00:55:26:19

And that's reflecting in all of my relationships right now. So I think it's such a beautiful point, and I think it's a kind of a good note to wrap up on. Again, this has been I love talking to you. I feel like I can get on this camera with you and feel like no one else is here.

00:55:27:00 - 00:55:57:06

No one else is ever going to listen. I'm just going to say, Holly, this is how I feel, and you're going to help me understand, better how I feel. And I hope our listeners take this away. Two. So two things. One is if you were going to just leave one tip out of this amazing conversation that we've had, what is one tip that you would give to our listeners, to support someone who's grieving around them?

00:56:43:15 - 00:57:26:24

I'm going to go an unexpected one. I'm going to say build out your own toolbox of support. Because usually when people are not showing up for others in grief, it's because they that we them, we ourselves can't handle what's coming up for ourselves, really feeling uncomfortable about their grief, etc. and it relates then to everything we've talked about is, you know, the more we can build out what what things could I try that might help myself right now, feel and process my emotions so they don't get stuck in me, will help us support people who are grieving and and help in many other ways to.

01:16:36:13 - 01:16:58:23

Hi everyone. Welcome back to Changing Minds and Changing Lives podcast Videocast. Hopefully you're seeing this on video too. My name is Julie, so I am the founder and now strategic advisor for Disability Solutions and luckily enough, still the podcast host for Changing Minds and Changing Lives. So excited about some of the shows that we've had this year.

01:16:58:23 - 01:17:14:23

Already excited about the ones that are coming up, but very, very excited to revisit a conversation and a guest that we had last year. And to kind of dive into the topic of grieving today and grieving at work.