CMCL Interview: Travis Davis

Julie Sowash:
Hi, welcome back to the Changing Minds, Changing Lives podcast. My name is Julie Sowash. I am the strategic advisor and founder of Disability Solutions. I’m also the CEO of Catch 22 Group. And I am so excited to be here yet again with you all. If you didn’t catch some of our latest interviews, Holly O’Hern, as usual, blew up the house with her conversation with me on mourning and has gotten such amazing feedback on LinkedIn and on our socials. I highly recommend you connect with Holly and also check out that episode. We also just had David Price from the CEO Commission for Disability Employment join us. That was a fantastic conversation. And not to be outdone, we’re gonna have another one of those fantastic conversations today with today’s guest, Travis Davis. Travis is a speaker, entrepreneur and disability advocate. He has a passion for creating inclusive environments. He was born with cerebral palsy. He has a BA in English and a master’s in adapted physical education. I want to know how we went from the English to the adapted physical education. And he also has an ADA or he’s an ADA coordinator. Try that again. And he is also ADA coordinator certified. So, welcome to Changing Minds, Changing Lives, Travis. Tell us a little bit about you.

Travis Davis:
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Julie. So I live in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I, as you mentioned, I live with cerebral palsy. And I've just been advocating for people with disabilities since college, when I was in southern California and got my undergrad in English. And I just have really fond memories of connecting with my peers that wanted to help raise awareness of individuals on campus who have disabilities and just from that moment, everything just snowballed. And I continued to do that same work when I moved back here in Albuquerque. And I've done two TEDx talks. One most recently was last month in Austin, Texas. And I’m just really grateful for opportunities and people like you who bring me on to a platform to share my message and, you know, talk about the important things regarding disabilities and helping people change their minds about people with disabilities, so.

Julie Sowash:
Amazing. So you kind of stole a little bit of my future thunder. I mean, you are the TEDx speaker, but I do also want to say, you know, you have your own podcast called

Travis Davis:
Yes.

Julie Sowash:
Off the Crutch. You do a ton of speaking. You own a Rush Bowls franchise. You do just incredible work. And so, tell me about the brand Off the Crutch. I love the name. And how you got to that place where a podcast and this brand made sense for your life.

Travis Davis:
Sure. So I started the podcast about five years ago. And it was right around when the pandemic was starting. And I was just, it was out of boredom, but also out of my interest in audio recording. I've done that since I was, like, 18, 19 years old. And so this wasn’t kinda new territory. Back then I was using more, like, hardware and now everything's gone digital. So that's kind of how long the, I've been kinda going at it. And so, originally, I was like, well, what if I call it Off the Cuff? Because my form of crutches have the cuff. And I'm like, well, what about just like Off the Crutch? And so, that was just how it came to be. And then I started interviewing people in just my friend group, because I think when you're starting out with a podcast, like, I didn't know what I was doing in terms of getting the word out there about who I was and like, well, maybe people should listen to see, like, get to hear about me. And then it started to escalate to people on my LinkedIn network and it just grew out of that. And then, see, I’d say it’s been about a year, year and a half when I really thought about expanding Off the Crutch from the podcast to do more of, like, coaching and consulting and helping people or organizations get off their quote unquote “crutches.” And how we have, you know, we all may not have physical crutches like I do, but we all have, like, mental crutches that prevent us from getting to point A to point B. And so, that’s kind of how that came to be. And so now I’m trying to make that brand not just about me, but helping other people. And it was just really the pieces fell into place last month when I was writing my TEDx talk. And to be able to share that message that coincides with my podcast, it just happened to work out because that wasn’t the original angle that I was going with my talk.

Julie Sowash:
Ok. So you had the podcast and then you have the TEDx talks. Tell me about the Rush Bowls franchise and what that is.

Travis Davis:
Yeah. So the Rush Bowls franchise started last, well, about two years ago, two of my friends came to me. So they actually are the owners of the franchise. They have a four year old daughter with Down syndrome. And they came to me because they saw a need to provide more employment opportunities for people with disabilities that go beyond maybe the stereotypical jobs that you see. And they just see their daughter as being able to do anything that anybody can. And that’s what they see with people with other disabilities. And so when they approached me, I was open to the idea. And, you know, I was the go between between the, my friends, the owners, and the contractor and all the people up until it opened up last year. And then I departed and then just decided to focus on my own thing with the podcast and the brand and all of that. So I just the, you know, the franchise, one of the unique things about it is it goes beyond just what the minimum requirements are for ADA. And I think that was one of the reasons that they brought me on, because of my ADA certification and just my lived experience with a disability. I think they wanted that perspective. So I, I’m really grateful for both of them for bringing me in and learning how to open up a business, because it’s really hard work. And, you know, I got to do some of the hiring and put together some of the, I’d say, ways in which the staff can feel most comfortable around people, like their peers with disabilities. Which sounds like,  so weird to have to create, like, cards or anything of that nature because it should just be like common sense. Like everybody should just be, you know, kind to everybody and have that knowledge. But, you know, we don’t, I guess we don’t live in a common sense world or we don’t live in this ideal world that I think about in my head. So, which is good in the sense that there’s always going to be education for people like you and people like me to educate other people around employment and those things. So, yeah.

Julie Sowash:
Quote of the podcast: “We don’t live in a common sense world.”

Travis Davis:
Yeah.

Julie Sowash:
I feel like we can wrap up now, because that’s it.

[laughter]

Julie Sowash:
But it is. And it’s important because people don’t have our lived experiences. And, I think, sometimes they are cruel out of ignorance. And that’s not an excuse, but it’s an avoidance tactic. And anytime we get the opportunity to educate and help someone understand just, I hate the word normalization, but I still say it all the time. The normalization of having people with different lived experiences all around us is so impactful, not just for the people who are participating, but I assume also impactful for your soul as well, like it is mine. And so when I was prepping for the interview, I was talking to Ashley, our director of marketing, who you have been chatting with. And she said I have to ask you about your interview story?

Travis Davis:
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I had to think about that for a second. Yeah. So last year, I applied for a job at this organization and I’m gonna be very delicate about how I describe the situation out of respect for them. But, so I applied to this organization and, you know, I’ve become pretty jaded about applying for jobs. And I think part of that is just because of the experience that people with disabilities go through. Now it’s just not isolated to the people with disabilities. It’s, you know, everybody goes through, you know, crappy interviews. But I think it’s heightened because of just living with a disability. So, I go to this interview and they were using this AI tool to record, and like, rate the interview. So, you know, had to click on a button to consent to being interviewed, being used that, using that tool. And it was like, yeah, whatever. So, no problem. So, I get on and, you know, I didn't have my best interview. It was, like a 15 minute, like, screening. And I actually knew somebody that was on the panel of four. And so, yeah, I mean, I didn't have the best interview. I own it. But afterwards, about two hours later, I get an email saying, oh, your report is ready. And so I'm like, ok. So, like, I click it. And I open it up. And it has our interview. And it has what, you know, how I was rated. You know, whatever. But it also had everything they said about me afterwards.

Julie Sowash:
Stop. Are you serious?

Travis Davis:
Yes.

Julie Sowash:
Oh, God. Ok. Go on.

[laughter]

Travis Davis
Now, I,

[laughter]

Travis Davis:
I was so curious. And some of the comments that they had made was about, made on my poor interview. And, you know, why I might have interviewed the way that I did. Somebody had mentioned, like, well, you know, I know people with disabilities have to sometimes interview to stay with, like, their benefits. And, yeah, he’s like, yeah I think he’s in a wheelchair. Like, I’m laughing about it because it is so, yeah. It’s just so unbelievable, now, to hear it back again almost a year later. Yeah. And so, and then the person that I knew who was on the call was like, well, you know, it’s, like, too bad that we only have this to judge and about it. And so, so yeah, I’m like, I watch it and then I’m like, I watch it and then I’m, like, dumbfounded. And, now, see. I went to dinner and I wasn’t really upset at the time. It was more like, well, no, I want a second chance. So I found all their email addresses and I emailed them and I wrote like a long, I don’t know if this could be on video, but I wrote a long email back to, like, refute some of the things that they were saying, right? And I was like, you know, if you give me a second chance, I, you know, it, like, wouldn’t happen again. Now, I shouldn't have taken that approach. I should have, like, went scorched earth on them and been like. But I didn’t because, again, I think when you have a disability and you, well, I’m generalizing, but you’re not necessarily in a position of power, right? And especially when you’re even applying for a job, you’re not in a position of power. So, I was taking more of a desperate, like, stance, which in retrospect, I shouldn’t have. So, emailed them. Nothing happens. Five days later, the person that was in the interview that I knew emailed me back and was like, hey Travis, thank you for reaching out. Congratulations. You’ve made it to the second round. 

[laughter]

Travis Davis:
Now.

Julie Sowash:
This is too much. Go on, go on.

Travis Davis:
So

[laughter]

Travis Davis:
So that in it makes sense, because they were talking about how they only had the interview to go off of. And so I'm like, well, they’re just covering themselves. And so, I declined. Now after a couple conversations with my retired lawyer, special education lawyer, she advised me to continue and pursue this. And so, I called the organization’s

[laughter]

Travis Davis:
HR department to let them know about it. And the lady’s response was, went something like this. She’s like, oh my gosh. I’m so sorry, you know, that happened to you. You know, it’s a bummer when technology doesn’t work the way that we want it to. 

Julie Sowash:
Yeah, that’s what it was.

Travis Davis:
So, I’m like, ok. So she didn’t acknowledge the fact that this, like, happened. And your employees were, well, I received the feedback after the fact and the things that they said about me. So I, it’s like, ok. I need to take a different approach because I’m not getting the answers that I want. So I go and I track down the person that is, oversees that department, which, so, like, ironically, that person that I track down was also in the interview that I had the year prior. So I had interviewed with her for a different role, but she had switched roles to become the head of the department that I had, that was interviewing for. So it’s not like she didn’t know who I was. So I tracked her down and we had a good conversation on the phone. And then we ended up having a Zoom chat with her and the head of HR. And at that point, I took a different approach. Instead of, like, I’m gonna sue you, I said, can you help me understand, like, how I can communicate this type of situation to other people in HR so other people like me don’t have to go through that? So, basically, was, like, using them to help me help other people versus I’m gonna put you on blast on the news and, you know, you’re not gonna like me and I’ll be excommunicated from that organization. So, you know, I took a different approach than, I think, many people would. That’s just, like, my nature. But I think at that point that was like the turning point to me of, yeah, I’m gonna do my own thing, and I’m gonna show, you know, those people and other people that doubt me or have these perceptions that, like, they’re wrong.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, A, I find it.

[laughter]

Julie Sowash:
There’s so much running through my head right now that I could say. One, you are a better human than I am because scorched earth was the only thing I was thinking at first. So, good for you. Two, I can’t believe that only happened a year ago. That, to me, I’m like, oh, this is probably like 2018, 2017, you know? It was, no. No, no, it wasn’t. Which tells us how far we still have to go. And, you know, also, you know, why, what kind of culture is this organization, right? What kind of business environment would you potentially have been working in if you had gone forward? If you had gotten hired? If you’d done those things? If the room where it happens, the, you know, behind closed doors, people are open to speaking with each other in that way, you know, that, what do you think that says, I guess, about the organization itself and the culture that they’ve built? 

Travis Davis:
It's very sad. Again, I'm being very kind to them right now by not sharing more about who they are, even though it’s been a year. And I don’t have ill will. I think, definitely, they gave me content.

[laughter]

Travis Davis:
And yeah, I could have really lit the match. And because I am, I wouldn’t say that I’m, like, a prominent figure in my community. But, like, people know who I am. And I could use my platform to really, like, I don’t know, take them down. It’s not like, that’s, like, extreme, but, yeah. But it’s, yeah. That was the other thing. It’s like, well, if I got this job, do I really want to be around people that already have those thoughts? And it’s just no. And then, I think, educating other businesses around it is, like, you know, that’s like the thing. And now, as I learned or, like, leaned into, learned more about myself, and leaned into this idea of getting off the crutch, I think there's, like, this full circle moment about the biases and things that hold us back. And it’s like, well, that’s like the perfect example. And again, like throughout the process, I even admitted in the email, like,I didn't have the best interview. So, like, I own it. I don't, I didn't go in there thinking I was gonna just, like, light the world on fire in the interview. So, it’s not. And I tend to be pretty self aware. But yeah, it was a pretty, a pretty crazy time.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah, well.

Travis Davis:
Yeah

Julie Sowash:
And, I mean, in my, you know, my takeaway and this is something that we hear so often in our community, is that people with disabilities are more likely to go open their own businesses because of the way that they’ve been treated by organizations, by hiring managers, by, you know, people in their lives that would otherwise greatly benefit from the talent that they bring to the table. So, not only did these people make absolute fools of themselves. They showed their own bias. But they also lost, now, someone who’s a business owner, who has a platform, who has a brand, whose done not one, but two TEDx talks. And had they been able to see beyond the fact that you might use a wheelchair or you might XYZ, what an asset you could’ve been to that organization. And I think that this is just such a profound example of how our biases lead us down the road that we’re on. And make us, lead us to make decisions that impact other people, especially around employment, so dramatically. And have absolutely no idea of the impact, both good and bad that they have on people. And it’s not just people with disabilities, like you said. Getting a job is hard. And everybody’s been through a crappy interview. But then to add to your crappy interview, then this extra layer of biases is really impactful.And, you know, I hope that, if you don’t mind, I would love for you to talk about the TEDx talk with the crutch, the C-R-U-T-C-H. And how, you know, you turned something that could be perceived as negative into something that now is your brand. It is who you are. It always has been who you are, but you take it to that next level and you show people how to get off the crutch.

Travis Davis:
Sure. Yeah. So, you know, it’s just really interesting growing up with forearm crutches. And I can't believe it took me this long to think about what those symbolizes. Like what they symbolize for me and what they could symbolize for other people. And I just thought because I’ve been in therapy for, like, ten years now. And so I’m really big on self-improvement and trying to look at the blind spots and all the things that I’ve dealt with and deal with. And so, coming up with this crutch framework, I think, it I put it in action as somebody who has been creative, been resilient, have understanding with other people. You know, I think a big part, as you watched the talk, was my journey to Austin, Texas, that I took, like, six trips. And I'm going to be going back there if I’m not fully moved. I’ll be going back there in September, so that’ll make it seven trips. So, you know, I had a lot of trust in going into a place that I had never visited before. And, you know, having the confidence and then having the heart to do it. And that’s, you know, the crux of, well, that is the framework. That if organizations and people can see the creativity, resilience, understanding, trust, confidence and heart that they could be better humans. I think, we’re not, there’s not a finite, perfect human. So we’re all gonna strive. We’re all, hopefully, not everybody strives to be better. But, I think, that framework can be a tool. And, you know, I filter sometimes I filter some ideas through, like, my therapist. And she really like the, this framework and the fact that it’s like strength based. And so, I tend to get feedback from people that I trust. And then if there’s, like, a handful that are like, oh yeah, this is great, then I'm like, oh, ok. Then I think I have something. But I think at the end of the day, it has to come from the person of that confidence. And like, yeah. And I think I took that first step in creating the podcast. And, I think, you know, I was born with a hole in my heart. And, you know, doctors didn't think that I was going to make it. And incorporating that into my talk and the heart was like, yeah. I, you know, sense of we can really do whatever we can, you know, whatever we put our minds to if we lead with heart, put our egos aside, and just, you know, help one another.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah. And I think that is too often lost in business, of course, but in talent acquisition and human resources. We need more transparency. Provide the ability to trust. And certainly don’t see often enough people in our world leading with their heart. So, amazing. And I really appreciate the transparency that you’ve had here, but also in your TED talk. It’s sometimes really easy to hold that part of your story back, I think. And it’s really powerful when people who do have a platform trust their audience enough to share some of the most intimate details of our existence. And so, with that, a couple of questions that I always love to wrap this show with. If you could tell an employer, maybe someone you interviewed with, one thing to change their mind about bringing talent with disability into their organization, what would you tell them?

Travis Davis:
Well, I want to give you some recent news

Julie Sowash:
Ok.

Travis Davis:
that I received. So, I recently got selected to speak at another event in Austin. And it’s for this conference called DisruptHR. I don’t know if you’ve heard of DisruptHR. So, I will be talking about why companies should hire people with disabilities and the strengths that they have. And if you are not looking at them as a potential employee, then you’re leaving really valuable people on the table. So I would tell them to watch my talk when I give it in September. But and it just, it just, it’s so interesting because what happened last year, and now I’m going to be having a platform about HR. So, but I think if I could give some advice, it would just be to listen. To listen and to understand who the person that you’re interviewing is. And really think about, ok, how can we make this experience the best for that individual? So they have every tool that they can to succeed in the interview. Not give them the job because they have a disability. But how can we set that person up for success? Because that starts, like, that’s the first impression. As I’ve shared, that organization was not kind to me. And that was only the interview.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah.

Travis Davis:
So if we can have more empathy in our interviews and lead with the same level of respect that you would, like, an able-bodied individual, then that's a good start.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah, and I think it’s the bare minimum that we should expect from the professionals in our world. And we obviously still have some way to go. So, one other question. What is one thing that someone did for you that changed your life?

[Laughter]

Julie Sowash:
Maybe the same person.

[Laughter]

Travis Davis:
Um, hmm. I mean, there's a lot of people. And I think, I mean, I think the cliché, maybe not cliché, I don't know. Again, I'm generalizing because I've had a really great upbringing with my family and my parents. I mean, I think my go to answer could be my parents, but I think I would say, like, the doctors that didn't stop operating on me when I was born. Because they, like, literally saved my life. And without them, because doctors had stopped operating on me. So without the other doctors, then I wouldn’t be here. And I just, I feel like I am playing with, like, house money every day. Because I, you know, they fixed the hole in my heart. But I have cerebral palsy. And living with a disability daily is difficult. On top of having a difficult life as a human. And, but yeah, doctors.

Julie Sowash:
Yeah, and those doctors are now helping you change lives for people who need and want to get to work and who deserve a better experience. So, thank you so much. This has been so fun. I love hearing stories. You are very good at telling the stories. Tell me how or tell our audience, because we’re already connected. But how do people find you? And how do they get a hold of you?

Travis Davis:
Sure. So they can follow me on Instagram: @travismdavis. That's also the handle for Facebook. Also the handle for LinkedIn. They can go to offthecrutch.com. That is also the name of the podcast. They can go to travisdavis.net. And they can get a hold of me either way.

Julie Sowash:
Great. So we will in the show notes we will put your original TED talk. And please share your next two, now, new TED talk and DisruptHR with Ashley and I so we can also share them with our network. Travis, thank you so much  for joining us. This has been an amazing conversation. Everyone, this is another episode of Changing Minds, Changing Lives. We hope we’ll catch you again here in a few days. Thanks.