CMCL Takeover By Grant Harris - Seen, But Not Heard: Neurodivergence in Communities of Color

Grant Harris:
Welcome to Changing Minds and Changing Lives, where we explore diversity, equity
and inclusion through the lens of disability. Each episode, we dive into insightful, educational, and candid conversations about disability inclusion, what it looks like, why it matters, and how we can all play a part in creating a more accessible and equitable world.

I'm Grant Harris, neurodiversity champion, organizational culture specialist, autistic author and speaker. And today,I have the privilege of stepping into the host seat with a conversation that's been long overdue. You've likely heard conversations about race, and you've probably heard conversations about neurodiversity, but rarely do we hear what it means to live at that intersection: to be seen for the color of your skin, but misunderstood for the way your mind works.

Today's episode is titled Seen But Not Heard: Neurodivergence in Communities of Color. Because too many of us have lived lives where our differences are observed, judged, or silenced, but not truly understood. And this conversation doesn't simply spotlight separate stories. It challenges what we think we know about race, neurodivergence, and visibility.

Today, our guests are innovators and healers and truth tellers. And they're here not just to speak, but to be heard. First and foremost, Ian Gibbs-Hall. He, his work invites us into the systemic and structural design of perception, exploring how organizations and metrics and language often mask neurodivergent brilliance behind institutional conformity. His lens is one of curiosity, or of sonder, and we'll let him explain what that means, and the belief that our systems reflect our questions. Our second guest, Natasha Grant Holmberg introduces a personal and generational lens. She really digs deep into the terrain of masking, late diagnosis and navigating medical systems that don't listen. Her story isn’t just about survival. It's about reclaiming the voice and making space for others to be heard earlier and more clearly. Unfortunately, our third guest couldn't be here today. We will try to bring him back in a different episode as we move forward with this series.

So today, we will paint this portrait of what it means to exist in a world where you're constantly interpreted but rarely understood. And what becomes possible when people are given the tools, the space, and the community to reimagine that reality. So without further ado, let's get into it. Natasha, welcome. Ian, good to see you. Good to have you. Very much looking forward to this conversation.

Ian Gibbs-Hall:
Likewise. Thanks so much for the opportunity and the space.

Grant Harris:
Natasha, you got on mute. You're gonna have to unmute yourself.

Natasha Grant Holmberg:
Well, good thing we caught that early, but excited to be here and have a really important conversation about the intersectionality between race and neurodiversity and also gender. What does that look like?

Grant Harris:
Oh, that's always a good one. So Ian does his thing because we've hung out before and he likes to eat, eat, eat and go with that. So yeah, I like that, Ian. So we have some group questions. And I definitely want you all to tell your individual stories. And we'll dive deeper a little bit later as we go along. And we've got an hour here today, so I really want to take our time to kind of weave through these journeys. So first group question, and this is for anyone to answer. Actually, I would love for both of you to answer. But we’ll toss up who goes first. So what does it really mean to be quote unquote “seen,” but not truly understood or misunderstood in the spaces where you live and work? And that may be, in this day and age, the space where we live and work is the exact same. The same chair, the same house, the same room. But it could not be as well. So what is, what does that really mean to you as a person of color? And eeny meeny miny moe. I'll go with Natasha since she's on the top of my screen.

Natasha Grant Holmberg:
Yeah, for me to be seen has always been a very, I guess you could say, complicated situation. I’m mixed race. I, you know, go under what people like to categorize as light skin. I’m, like, the least dark within my family. And growing up, that kind of gave me almost a little bit of a coat, I guess you could say, when it came to a lot of the racial issues, when I think it came to people wanting to be open about being my friend. But it also meant that when I would bring up Black specific issues, people would always kind of look at me like, well that doesn’t really affect you, you know? Because you can hide in a way. I didn’t start wearing my hair naturally really at all until  well into adulthood. I kept it straight pretty much my entire childhood, because I wanted to relate to my friends. I wanted to fit in. And there was no other real Black kids around me. So that’s what I shot with. So, you know, what it means to be seen, for me, I don’t know if I’ve ever 100% felt seen. And I think a lot of that just has to do, I grew up in suburbia. I didn’t grow up around a lot of other Black families. Our neighborhood, I don’t think a single Black family even lived in our neighborhood. Didn’t really go to our church. So a very different upbringing in the sense of what does it mean to be Black? I mean, I got to college and that’s probably the first time I saw, outside of like a family reunion, more than 15 Black people at once. And I was like, oh my gosh, what is happening? Like, this is the coolest thing ever. And I’m sure everyone was looking at me like, why is this lightskin like, staring at me all the time? But I was just so excited to be around other Black people when I went to college. So I think for me, seen is a  hard one, I think, when it comes to live and work. You know, I work in the area of Disability and Inclusion,  but, you know, what does that mean now in this previous landscape and our current landscape of how do you not only uphold your beliefs but also not be the dictionary for others? How do you force people to still need to do their own research, but realize they are leaning on you a little bit because of the color of your skin. And then tack on what I do for a living. I have a multifaceted approach when it comes to my answers to questions, what I find we should be talking about resources I might point people to.

Grant Harris:
Yeah, I feel you. Similar upbringing. My parents moved my older sister out of the inner city in New York. Moved to the suburbs of DC. Specifically, at least the story that I’m told, for better school systems. And better school systems, meaning what type of school systems? White school systems, right? So I grew up in majority white neighborhoods, majority white schools. I was frequently one of the only or few. And always had this thing of, I spoke too well to be considered Black. But I didn't have enough money to be considered white. I, you know, my parents drove a niceish car, and that somehow put me, and it wasn’t my car, I couldn't even drive. I didn’t buy the car. But that somehow put me in the, oh, I was in the white category because of the type of car my parents drove. And you not dark enough to be Black enough and not light enough to be white enough. So I get it from that perspective. Ian, I would love to hear your perspective. You always come at it from an unearthly angle. So, I'm looking forward to it. What does it mean to you?

Ian Gibbs-Hall:
Yeah, well, first I want to. it’s really cool that each of us has a very similar experience with being, and I’m gonna put air quotes around it, like, “Black.” It’s like, I think we keep getting hit with this label in predominantly white spaces, so I’m so excited for this conversation. This doesn’t happen to me ever. But yeah, I think to be, sorry. To be seen, I think, goes back to that word that I put  in my introduction. And Grant, thanks for the, kind of, the bump. It’s sonder. Sonder is a word that has followed me, that has consumed me for the last, I have a puppy playing that’s making, banging on the door, consuming me for the last five years. And sonder is a word from the dictionary of obscure sorrow, that is not my own. I would love to claim it, but I cannot. That means the, it is the profound realization, of realizing that everyone, every face in the crowd, every stranger on the street, every person on the other side that you’re fighting has a life that’s just as complex as your own. It means that every person is a main character. Like, there are no extras. Every person’s experience matters and it is wonderfully exhausting. And, I think, gives us a benchmark for what it means to be seen. Because if we take that approach, if we take that lens and realize, oh, no one’s here just by happenstance. Like, everyone is seeing something that no one else ever has or will see in the history of the universe. Like right now, each of us and to those who are listening. It’s like, no one else is in your seat or standing where you are or walking where you are right now. And if they were, they wouldn’t have the however many years of lived experience that you have that is one of a kind to you to shape what this moment is. And so, to me, feeling seen is recognizing, appreciating, that perspective, that authenticity, what it’s like for you in this moment. What can be, what makes paradoxes show up consistently of being both,I think I’m also mixed, both being too much and not enough. What’s that like? No one’s ever really asked me. It’s just been, wait, where are you from? Because I don’t know how to label you. What identity do I define you. What character do I assume you to play versus seeing you as the actor on the stage that we’re on.

Grant Harris:
Powerful. That’s like this concept that I've been talking about with some folks in my circles about holding two truths at once. And we live in a very binary world. You're either white or Black. And even those of us who are mixed, we historically, in this country, go by whatever your dad is. And if your dad is white or Black, and that's what you get characterized as, even if you don't identify as that culture or as that side of your family. While holding these two truths at once, yeah, well, I'm both in the I appreciate my whiteness. I appreciate my Blackness. They exist at the same time. Depends on the conversation. Maybe the conversation, my Blackness comes out a little bit more, or the other side. But then again, like how are we ourselves identifying what our Blackness comes out? Or when our whiteness comes out? Or any other race that we want to put into it? But that's what we're talking about today. So, thank you for giving, digging a little bit deeper into sonder and what that is, Ian. And I’m sure we'll go deeper. So, one more general questions to the group and we'll start getting into kind of like specific areas for each of you. So where have you encountered these systems. And systems is a large word. And you can break them down. But you, your personal choice of the type of system. Where have you encountered these systems that have tried to define you before you even define yourself? Before you spoke in the room? Before you wrote something? Before you showed up at the job, at the interview, at the carwash? Like what system was at play for you? Something that comes to mind? We'll go back to you, Natasha.

Natasha Grant Holmberg:
Yeah, I’ve been fortunate enough where the jobs that I’ve had I’ve never really felt, like in terms of my race, that I was encountering, you know, potentially a wall. But I’ve experienced that throughout education. I think starting from being a little kid, I distinctly remember when I was top five in my high school. And my principal at the time looked at me and said he was shocked that I was in the top five. And he thought that I was gonna be much lower in the class. That I was the only Black person in the top five of my class. And I remember that really distinctly, because up until that point, I had never really spent a lot of time thinking about how does my race define my educational prowess. And, yes, I’d heard the common, you don’t talk like a Black person. Like, why is your grammar so good? But I always just kind of ding that to like growing up in suburbia and not being around other Black people. People, I don’t think, view grammar as much as they view certain catch phrases and slang as not “speaking properly.” It’s not necessarily that everyone who’s Black is using bad grammar. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I think people just don’t understand slang and decide to use that to do their own confirmation bias. But I’ve also felt it a lot in the medical field. I’ve had a lot of doctors try to initially treat only the white part of me. And I felt that a lot of things got missed for me, growing up. And, you know, even leading to my late diagnosis and finding a therapist that works for me has all really, I think, come down to the color of my skin. And is someone willing to treat me as a whole person? And not just the Black side, not just the white side, holistically, every part of me, while also understanding that science very much exists. And we have to remember that and take that into consideration when we’re treating our patients.

Grant Harris:
Yeah, well, we know from medical perspective, and I realize that our conversation thus far has been focused externally, on the color of our skin and how we present to other people from a race perspective. And we'll dig deeper on the neurodivergence. But as we know in medical, I was recently listening to one of the many podcasts that I listen to. And they were talking about the medical field and how certain races are diagnosed with certain even disorders or diseases because they happen to be Black or white. And where that came from and the history of those things. For example, keloids, which is basically a skin tissue that occurs after a scar on the skin. It's commonly understood in the medical field that Black people are the only ones, or they're predisposed to these keloids on their skin. And 16% of Black people get keloids regularly. And the researcher was like, where does this number come from? And hundreds of years back, it came from one conference and one person in Europe, one scientist, that studied a group of Black people at that time and that group of Black people at that time, he found 16% of them had this keloid thing. And then hundreds of years later, that's a throughline to well, we just have it in the medical book. And that this has happened because of Black people on the other side. Apparently cystic fibrosis is a white person's disorder or disease. And there have been instances of an X-ray being shown that cystic fibrosis affects the lungs and how you breathe, to my understanding, and the doctor said, well, who's the kid with cystic fibrosis? And it was a Black child. And according to the medical book and studies, Black children don't get cystic fibrosis. So these, these, pathologies in the medical field that we live with and these assumptions and these biases that it's in the book. And I'm a medical student and I study it, and it must be true, because someone said it. Well, we don't look at all those different levels. And then like I said, Ian, I want you to take your shot at answering that question and then talking about levels, we’ll go further than just skin deep, because there's more to us than that. But, Ian, please.

Ian Gibbs-Hall:
Yeah, so to make sure I’m aligned, the question is, like, what systems do you see showing up?

Grant Harris:
Yes, correct.

Ian Gibbs-Hall:
Yeah.

Grant Harris:
What systems are in play? Yeah.

Ian Gibbs-Hall:
Yeah, so I’ll “just” focus on race, because race consumed me. It was, you know, post George Floyd. We thought something was happening. Something was. Didn’t really stick. Or it, I don’t know. We’re in it now. And I was questioning what this was in this divisive narrative that we have, and this polarizing climate. I was like, what does it mean to be the in between? What is this? What is race? Like, where did it come from? And so, if you see me looking off screen, it’s because I’m looking at a curriculum that I developed to answer that question. And, granted, to kind of, “yes and” what you just shared, it’s, I think, the biggest systems that let people feel unseen are, the first is the their belief systems. And the first of those belief systems is that there is one universal truth that we all must subscribe to. If we don’t, we’re bad. If we do, we’re good. And the second is, the system on top of that, of not challenging those belief systems. You know, if we ask just like a, like my three-year-old, love him to death, but like, if we ask why enough, if you just keep asking why and why and why eventually even I, my degrees are in chemistry, of all things. Eventually I’ll get to I don’t know. It just is that way. And when it’s some social construct which is most everything that we interact with all of the time. It becomes, I don’t know. That’s just what someone before me did. Like, that’s just the way that we’ve done things. And so if you go back far enough, if you go back to oh I’m trying to find the exact date to sound academic. Oh, and I’m gonna get it. If you go back to 1453, and you go, what is the, what was the intent behind the creation of race? And the actual fun part is race came later. Blackness came first. Blackness came as a concept in 1453 in Portugal. It was created as a tool for slavery, not out of hatred, but to liberate, to save. And it came in this awful, horrible book that you can buy on Amazon now, called, “The Discovery and the Conquest of Guinea.” And it was written by I can’t roll my r’s. I can’t pronounce his name. I don’t wanna pronounce his name. It’s not a good book. It creates a brand new category of people. The Black category. The subhuman category. And that narrative was thrust upon people with darker skin to enable the transatlantic slave trade. Because the prince of Portugal at that time didn’t want to have to go East, because what if I go West? So these structures exist because we don’t challenge them. That’s 1453. How has that intent persisted? It’s, well, all these problems we have now, they’re, a lot of them are out of hatred. And a lot of them aren’t. It’s the same intent from before. It’s, you know, we have to save. I’m just kind of, I don’t know if this was said directly, but it’s always underneath the surface. Like, we have to save Black people. How do we protect Black people? This is, instead of, like, no, what is causing us to believe that this group of people, people, human beings, are subhuman in the first place? Oh, it’s everything around us. It’s how we’ve zoned houses, it’s our education system, it’s how we assess what intelligence is. This classic aptitude test  for the SATs, what it used to be called, used to have a picture of which women is more attractive. I’m gonna have a picture of a white woman and a Black woman. It’s everywhere. Like it’s, it’s exhausting. And, if you start questioning things, those systems show themselves. And I think what we’re dealing with now with this polarization is some people have questioned and some people haven’t had the opportunity to. They either haven’t felt safe to or haven’t had a gentle nudge or kind push to do so. And I think we need more of those spaces and those gentle nudges. 

Grant Harris:
Well, that's why we're here, here in this space to have that nudge. You mentioned three year old. I have a four year old. And my other two kids are older. But the questioning of why and why. You're right. That’s sort of the point. It’s not, well, this is why, because of all of this either evidence or lived experiences, like out of frustration, we, that's just the way it is. That's the foundation that we get to hit bedrock. And then we as adults, we have a choice to say, well, we leave it at that because now the kid has a finality. Or we can be like, well, I don't really know why it is. Maybe we should think differently. Maybe, what do you think we should do? Like, and have that level of curiosity back and forth for that conversation with a three and four year old? Because our kids will be the first ones to tell us that we’re wrong. And they'll be the first ones to think of something that is completely, vastly different than what us adults have come up with. So thank you for that, Ian. Do want to get into some individualized questions based on your histories and your lived experiences. So, Natasha, coming back to you. Identifying as a woman, identifying as a woman of color, identifying as a woman of color who is also neurodivergent, and you can layer on any other kind of multiple that you would like. But just those three in and of themselves, can be difficult. So you mentioned earlier your late diagnosis and we’re similar. I also had a late diagnosis. So and also your language around that and being able to speak to it. Can you tell us more about the journey and the exploration? How you came to find yourself?

Natasha Grant Holmberg:
Yeah. I think building off to everything that Ian was saying in terms of we’re a creation of our own environment, why do we do things the way that they do? A big question I always  like to ask is are we doing things this way because we’ve always done them that way? Or is there actually a purpose behind that decision making? And I feel like that’s driven a lot of my life, and drove me to this point of eventually getting diagnosed, is why are the things that are happening to me happening to me? You know, why as a woman am I afraid to go outside at night? Like, why? Why do I feel that way? Why am I being told I have to carry pepper spray, but my brother’s not being told the same thing. Like, where is that coming from? And, you know, that maybe should have been a little inkling as a child that I was neurodivergent when I couldn’t take a single answer and just say, Oh cool. Got it. Let’s move on. No, I had to keep digging and digging and digging because why? What was the purpose? And so, I was always  a really good student. And, now, knowing way more about neurodivergency, that was a big part of why I think I didn’t get diagnosed, is I was a very anxious student. But I was a very good student. And so that was really just that’s how she is. That’s OK. Or she’s trying to keep up with the Joneses. Or the reason she’s pushing herself so hard is because she’s going after “Black excellence.” Which, kind of just that phrase in itself really grinds my gears.

Grant Harris:
No. Not just excellence. Not excellence period. But Black excellence.

Natasha Grant Holmberg:
Why can I only be excellent with my race? It’s like, why,? Yeah, and so telling me and telling my parents that I’m anxious and the doctor’s looking at me and saying I’m anxious and I’m getting good grades because I’m trying to prove myself and be Black and excellent was like, what? Like, that wasn’t even thinking about that. I wasn’t trying to prove anything to anyone when it came to the color of my skin. That wasn’t what I was aiming for. I was of course aware. I have a father who only got into the college he got into because of the color of his skin. Like, he, they were very clear with him. We need to reach a quota. Come, go to our university. So I was aware. I was, you know, keeping in mind with those things. But I was just trying to get good grades because, unlike my peers, my parents weren’t going to be paying for all my college. So that’s really what I was focusing on. No excellence involved. And then I was still anxious. I got to college and I was still anxious. But I was still getting good grades. And then I, you know, moved up in my career. And it wasn’t until  I started working that that Black excellence thing suddenly came back into play again as I was getting promoted. And I wasn’t getting the congratulations on your promotion. I was getting, congratulations on your promotion, because that must have been really hard for you. Or, your parents must be so proud, because look what you’ve accomplished in your life. And this was coming from, you know, family members, people that I was friends with. And it kind of made me realize that we’re all living in this world where everyone’s trying to confirm their biases that they have of you  in their head. And that, inexplicitly, I was confirming all of their Black excellence bias, you know? When I got my master’s degree, it was like, this huge shock. And I’m like, I didn’t even get a complex master’s degree. Like, I was like, I had to be good at writing papers. That was pretty much it. And so, as I got promoted, and I started having more people rely on me, I realized, like, I am struggling and I do not understand how to put things into words. And I have always been someone that’s very finite. And as I was growing in my career, I was beginning to supervise staff, I realized a lot of the way I was processing things was very some like to say the neurodivergency black and white. And then struggling with systems in the workplace that I was like, this just doesn’t make sense. And kind of having that inability to just, like, sit on my hands when everyone in the room was like, dude, just sit on your hands. Like, why are you speaking? But it really, for me, came for when I no longer could perform to the level that I was used to performing. I never struggled with that growing up as a kid. I was always able to get really good grades. I was always on top of everything. I was a pretty organized kid. And suddenly, like, my house was a mess. My life was a mess. My planner was making me,like, sweat every time I looked at it. And so, I was like, I’m gonna go to the doctor. And like, I’m gonna try a new psychiatrist. Like, I’d been on anxiety meds my whole life. And I was like, maybe something’s wrong with the dosing. I don’t know.  Whatever. And I sit down. She’s just asking me generic questions. And I talk about probably six or seven different subjects within 30 minutes. And she’s looking at me and she’s like, has anyone ever discussed with you whether you could have ADHD? And I was like, no. Like, I don’t have ADHD. And it wasn’t because I was anti-having ADHD. It was just like, I would know if I have ADHD. I mean, I have worked with the disability population my entire career. Like, that is what pays my bills. So I was like, I would know if I have ADHD. I would know these things. And even though subconsciously, like, I’d done research on the way that autism has been diagnosed in Black individuals. I saw it within my own family, the diagnosis and the lack of diagnosis. And I was still sitting there completely shocked about what she was saying to me. And then also really frustrated because I grew up in a very  pro-mental health family, you know, in terms of very different than some typical Black families in the aspect of, like, don’t trust, don’t trust, don’t trust. We did have a really hard time finding good fits, but I grew up going to therapy. I grew up having a psychiatrist and getting access to the help that I needed. Not always good access. The doctors didn’t always understand what was going on. I completely stopped going to therapy after the George Floyd happened, because my therapist thought I was being dramatic. And I was like, um, no, no dramatics here. And so finally having someone listen to me and start asking questions really then made me reflect on how much time I lost out on if I would’ve been diagnosed. You know, the fact that I’m now an adult and been on sleeping meds my entire life, because I didn’t know I had insomnia. I thought everyone else  wasn’t sleeping too. And now I’m medicated  for my ADHD and the ability for me to just balance things is so much better. I’m able to actually, like, go to therapy and have, like, good therapy. I will add, though, I do have a Black therapist. And I think that plays a large role in me being able to go to therapy successfully, is I don’t feel likeI have to walk on eggshells with what I might say. But yeah, being late diagnosed and then, too, being in this career field, it was really a tailspin for me. And I still, it still is a tailspin. Because, too, I was masking for so long. And I got all of my promotions before I knewI was neurodivergent. And so it was interesting for me, then, after I got them reflecting on would I have gotten these? Would I have been seen this way at other companies? I work with a lot of people in the corporate world. And I still to this day, I very much play it to my chest sometimes, you know? Anyone spends enough time on my LinkedIn, they’ll probably be able to figure out that I have ADHD. But I don’t always start a conversation with that, even though my job is literally getting employers to hire neurodivergent individuals.But it’s because I’m there because  they don’t know what they’re doing. So I don’t want to walk myself into their confirmation bias and then suddenly they’re not listening to me because they think I’m pushing my own agenda. So similar to being a Black person. So similar to being a woman. You only care about these issues because they’re impacting you. So suddenly I got this diagnosis and I wasn’t ashamed of it. But I now realized I had a third thing for people to use bias on me against. I had a third thing for people to think the only reason you care, the only reason you’re pushing this topic, is because it involves you. And we get it. We know there’s selfish people all over the world, you know? But I shouldn’t have to prove that I’m not selfish because I’m a woman, I’m Black, I’m neurodivergent. I shouldn’t have to prove that the reason that I care is not necessarily because of me. And that’s something I still battle with. And I think that’s something probably all of us battle with is we have these interconnecting pieces of us. And all of our interconnecting pieces bring a bias of some kind that people are chasing to confirm whether they think it or not. Everybody is biased in some way.

Grant Harris:
Yeah, so many things. But the one thing that I want to pick up on there is, I knew it was coming up in this conversation about masking, Black masking. So all these,all of the listeners are familiar with the concept of masking. And I’m not gonna insult anyone's intelligence. However I I was introduced to a new concept of Black Masking. And I was interested to see if either one of you have heard of it before. So Black Masking is a term for a process, that is steeped in Black history, specifically in Louisiana, specifically in New Orleans and the Creole South, where the combination and the intersection of Native Americans and Black people came together many years ago. And there's a process of beading, of thousands and thousands of beading, that Black people make. And they make into these elaborate costumes that are influenced by and connected through and by Native American heritage. And they wear them throughout Mardi Gras in a season in New Orleans, which I've never been. I hear it’s a good time. I gotta check it out. But it's this concept of Black Masking, because Black people do it. They’re the only community that does it. They learned it from the Native American community. And we all know their rich history and all the biases that they have in their communities. So these two communities intersect and then create this concept of Black Masking, which has nothing to do with neurodivergence. But when I heard about it, I was like, I know I'm talking to Ian and I'm talking to Natasha, and we're gonna have this conversation. And masking is gonna come up. But it transcribes and jumps over lines from neurodivergence to these two communities that don't really have that much in common, but have a lot in common in terms of how they've been marginalized and the misuse and abuse of their talents and their skills and their abilities. And then it's in this frame of Black masking that we talk about from a neurodivergent perspective. So I was I thought that was very interesting. And I encourage you all listening to to look it up. And it's not just about masking for the neurodivergent perspective, but Black people in New Orleans, influenced by Native Americans, create these elaborate headdresses and costumes and all of that through thousands and thousands of beads and it’s really in that community. So aside.

Natasha Grant Holmberg:
I think we socially mask though. I think Black people socially mask all the time. I think we mask in the way that we dress too. I mean, there’s a lot of discourse right now in the WNBA between some players and a lot of it is coming between the way that they are dressing. And for me, it comes down to one individual is like, this is my fashion sense. This is how I wanna wear clothes. Why does it matter? I’m gonna be me. But they’re being attacked. And it’s like, they’re mad because, in my opinion, they’re not Black masking. And I think we see that in every single day, you know? Ian, I don’t actually know, like, how you grew up but, I think, you know, for Grant and I growing up in kind of suburbia, we may have not realized that we were Black masking. But I think on a subconscious level, so similar to neurodivergent people, we knew we say this, we act this way, we’re not going to be accepted into the circle that we’ve been placed. And yes, we’re kids. And our parents made the decisions that they made for us. But we’re still aware. It’s no different than going to a school and kids getting bullied for being interested in certain things. Those kids made a conscious choice to say, I don’t care. This is what I like, knowing they’re not gonna fit into those circles, because kids are mean. Well, I think we do that our entire lives. I mean, if I’m too loud in a meeting, I’m very aware that that could be interpreted in a multitude of ways. And, I know for a fact that I was Black masking pretty heavily, I would say, up until I finished college. Because I did not know how to navigate the true real world. And the fact that now I was responsible for myself. I was responsible for my own education. And more importantly, I was responsible for how I choose to identify as a woman and as a Black person. Because my parents weren’t there any longer. I was getting to choose the neighborhoods that I lived in. I was getting to choose the friends that I was making, you know? And I think we all do it. And I think we still probably do it without realizing it sometimes. And you have to be conscious of it. But, Grant, you make a good point. And I think it’s a social thing too that we’re looking out for, you’re looking out for yourselves, you know? But.

Grant Harris:
I know I don’t have a problem with being too loud in meetings. And I get it from the opposite. That I'm too quiet and somehow I'm disinterested. Or I'm holding back with something. And that's not necessarily the case. Ian, I'd definitely, would love to hear your perspective and your input.

Ian Gibbs-Hall:
Yeah, thanks for the space. And, Natasha, I’m going back to you sharing your experience before. I’m sorry about your therapists. That’s a real bummer. And I wish we could see more. But I think you talked about growing up in suburbia. And I don’t want to one up. But I will yes and growing up in suburbia. I grew up in rural Iowa, of all places. Yeah, that’s, yeah. Yeah, so that experience and growing up, because Natasha I really resonated with what you shared before about like, I couldn’t play the game anymore. Like, I couldn’t perform. Sorry, that’s the part I wanted to add. Like, I couldn’t, I can’t perform anymore. And in Iowa, I tried and I’ve been looking down trying to find this photo. It’s my least favorite photo of all time. This is me in middle school doing my best to do what everyone had told me to do. Grow your hair out. Have an Afro. Get a chain. Lived in rural Iowa. We had a town of, was it the county had 8,000 people? The biggest town was 2,000. I’ll bring it back up. Isn’t that terrible? That poor kid.

Grant Harris:
Ian, I was like, you can't. You gotta bring it back. I was just gonna say, bring it back.

Natasha Grant Holmberg:
Like, the chain is so low. You go the Nautica shirt, like.

Ian Gibbs-Hall:
Nautica shirt from J.C. Penney. Chain stolen from my stepmom, like.

Natasha Grant Holmberg:
You were trying to serve. I don’t know if you did, but you were trying.

Ian Gibbs-Hall:
I didn’t. No, I was 5’2’’. I didn’t know what I was doing. Like, I was a tenor one. What isn’t featured are Southpole pants, Birdman Lugz, and not a clue as to what I was doing. Like, going back to like feeling seen, it’s like, oh wait, if by playing and performing what was expected. I’m like, oh, I’ll succumb to this narrative. Everyone’s telling me to, you know, somehow be different. I’m like, I didn’t want to be different. I grew up with my mom. My mom’s white. She married who I call my dad. My dad looks nothing like me, because we are not related by blood. He is 5’9’’, blond hair, blue-eyed and he has an umlaut in his last name. He is German as all get out. And my sister looks just like him. So, growing up in Iowa with that, it’s like, oh, what is this? What is this? What is, how do I perform? And after enough time of looking at this stuff and going like,  this doesn’t feel right. This kid kept trying to do what he needed to do up through high school and college and developed so much anxiety and self loathing and destructive coping tendencies, that it took a while to realize like, oh, it’s not the game. Like, I can’t perform this game anymore, because the game is broken. And the more I play these games, the more I see, like, it’s not broken. It’s working exactly as it’s intended. Like, we haven’t changed the way that we’ve worked since the industrial revolution. We haven’t made space to account for everyone’s complexities. We have made it so that every person is interchangeable into an some derivative of an assembly line to create a manufactured product, to create a tech product to create something. Do this. Be this way. Fit the culture. Fit the culture. And sit down and shut up. And that didn’t feel good to me. 

Grant Harris:
You talk about that. You talk about the workplace and the evolution of the worker. And that plays. And you talk about tech. You talk a lot about innovation.So let's pull on that thread a bit. In your experience, what's the most misunderstood trait when it comes to neurodivergence and innovation in the workplace? Because you were going there and I wanted to get to innovation later on. But you've got me there faster.

Ian Gibbs-Hall:
Yeah, oh, thanks for letting me skip ahead in line. I think what I’m trying to skirt around is the fact that I am not formally diagnosed with a form of neurodivergence. However, of course I am. Like, everything I talk about and do. Like, my whole like, it’s just, it makes sense. And, I think the, I’m sorry, Grant, what was the question again? I’m getting too excited.

Grant Harris:
No, you're good. It was about innovation, because you were talking about tech and the evolution of the worker. How does, what's the through line between neurodivergence whether you’re diagnosed or not, in innovation workplace? Not just today, but tomorrow, as you see it?

Ian Gibbs-Hall:
Yeah, so, I think two perspective shifts that have really helped me see innovation differently is by looking at it not as a right answer that needs to be found. It’s not the silver bullet that’s hiding in a drawer somewhere that’s going to save the company and give you the right idea. Like, innovation is a it’s a mindset. It’s a way to realize there is no one universal truth. And that, paradoxically, which it just, it hurts. I think about this all day and it still hurts. Everyone sees something that no one else has seen. So when you’re trying to create something new, you need to back up and figure out what’s the actual problem here? What are we trying to solve? Are we, it’s one of my favorite examples from when I was a management consultant, a system that did not work for me, was reframing how an elevator can be broken. And I talk about this all the time, because I love it. It’s, let’s say you’re a building attendant. You’re in charge of a building. And you just got a brand new elevator. Cost, I don’t know how much elevators cost. Ten thousand, tens of thousands of dollars. A lot of money. It’s a lot of metal. And your tenants get in and they line up. And then they start coming to your front desk and complaining. Like, hey, this is taking too long. Like, the elevator is broken. So, that framing initially. You’re not questioning it. We’re just taking it as is. It has always been this way. It is broken. Let’s fix it. Instead of going a little bit deeper. And so, what that leads to is, I think, where a lot of individuals are, both in personal lives, and organizationally, which is, let’s figure out how to fix the elevator. Let’s grease the wheels. Let’s put a USB thing in the, I don’t know how elevators work. Let’s make sure everything is running. Let’s get a technician out here. Let’s do all of it. And so you do all that. Still complaining. It’s too slow. And let’s say a new kid, you know, an intern at your business, comes by and fixes this problem with one simple addition. They just put a mirror in that elevator. What’s your problem? It’s not moving too slowly. It’s that people are bored. And so it’s that we’ve focused on just fine-tuning this elevator over and over again. When it’s like, no, no what is the human experience beneath it that is driving this need? That is creating this problem that we are now trying to solve. Can we do that one first? And it’s why when talking about innovating and finding something new, it’s not some magical thing that we haven’t thought of. The truth isn’t hidden. It’s just overlooked. We’ve all got something really cool we could share if we’re given the safety to share it, to be authentic. to share, like, I don’t like this. Let’s do this instead. That might work better. I’ll keep going, so I’ll pause.

Grant Harris:
No. So that was a little bit of, so how people think differently. Because you put up a mirror and then the thought process is different because, like you said, the focus is not on time. It's on boredom. And it's interesting, Netflix, different kind of thing, but that's the way my autistic brain works. So Netflix has competition. They are a streaming service. They are fighting against all the others because every other day there's a new streaming service that comes out. And I'll ask you to maybe you know, maybe you don't. But what is Netflix’s, who is Netflix’s or what is Netflix's biggest competition? Who is their biggest competitor? Who do you think?

Ian Gibbs-Hall:
Outside. 

Grant Harris:
Outside? OK.

Ian Gibbs-Hall:
Spending time with your family. Anything that detracts time from you in any way.

Grant Harris:
OK.

Natasha Grant Holmberg:
I mean, I think based off the culture that we’re living in of like, we want access to things now, now, now, now now, I think Netflix’s biggest competitor is any show it doesn’t produce itself. that’s currently on, that’s popular, that, you know, you can’t get access to on Netflix, which is where, you know, a really different range between like Hulu. Hulu you get all sorts of accesses to everything. But, I think, too, like, I kind of feel like Netflix’s biggest competition sometimes is itself. Because we’re also living in this age where people just want everything.

Grant Harris:
Mmm.

Natasha Grant Holmberg:
I canceled my Netflix for a long time. And, quite frankly, the only reason I just added it back is because you can watch Netflix on the Peloton. And my husband and I just got a Peloton. And I need to be distracted in order to work out. And sometimes reading my Kindle on the Peloton gives me a headache. So that’s the only reason we got Netflix back. I didn’t need it outside of that, but now it’s serving a purpose for me.

Grant Harris:
Mmm.

Natasha Grant Holmberg:
Do people really need the six streaming services? No. But do they not want  to be at risk of this artificial fear of, what if I miss something? What if I don’t have the streaming service that the latest thing is on? What if I’m alone with my own thoughts for five seconds? Can’t let that happen. So. I don’t know. I don’t know what the actual answer to that question is.

Grant Harris:
All that is true. And I like Ian's answer. I like yours too, Natasha. But and again I wasn't in the room with the workers, but apparently, what I've read, is that Netflix’s biggest competition is sleep.

Natasha Grant Holmberg:
Oh.

Ian Gibbs-Hall:
It’s what?

Grant Harris:
Is sleep. So if people are sleeping then they're not watching. So yeah. Hulu and all these others, and Ian, you said outside, which is one thing, but you can have your phone outside and still watch. But if you're sleeping then you're not watching. So how do we keep people glued? Which is why they decrease the, I don't know what it's called, but the transition time between episodes. You just keep going. You binge and keep going, keep going, keep going. I get and this shows up. The reason I bring this up is because it shows up in my ADHD wife. Because my wife is ADHD. And most ADHD people have different circadian rhythms. I'll go with me and my wife. We have very vastly different circadian rhythms. And she's a night owl and I'm a morning person. And that's just how it runs. But if she's watching a Netflix show,and she's in it, just another episode, just another episode. Because she's not sleeping. Because she's watching. And then that affects, obviously, everything else that you do in life. So the reason I bring that up is just the divergent thinking of, well, yeah, my competitive market is Hulu or Disney Plus. Well, not really. It's this thing over here. And that's what Ian was getting at with the mirrors and the elevator. It's not this thing. It’s really this thing. And we look at those things differently. That's where divergent thinking comes in. So with a few minutes left.

Natasha Grant Holmberg:
And the fix thing too.

Grant Harris:
Yeah, yeah. With the few minutes we have left, I wanted to hit each of you with one last question. We've got about ten minutes left. Actually, I want to do this and go off script a bit. So, Natasha, you have spoken at depth about being a Black woman who's neurodivergent. What is one thing that you can give to other people who identify, like, you, Black women who are out loud and proud about being neurodivergent or who are still like you, even so, even you, they probably still play close to the chest. Who maybe who have not come out, in that way, who have not divulged? What’s one piece of advice that you would give those folks?

Natasha Grant Holmberg:
I think the biggest piece of advice I would give people is, especially being Black and neurodivergent and a woman, is don’t try to fix yourself. Don’t focus on the fact that you are now somehow broken and that you have somehow now found another piece of your identity that you can’t wash away. I think, you know, when you’re Black, you can’t ever change that. You can’t. That doesn’t go away. And then you get neurodiversity, which is often an invisible diagnosis. You kinda, your first thought might be, OK, I don’t want this. I don’t wanna tack on this. But it’s invisible. So I can just pretend. And I can fix myself. So people won’t know. And that would be my biggest suggestion is don’t try to fix yourself Figure out where your neurodiversity is really benefiting your life. And finding those tools that are beneficial. But something that Grant and I have talked about in depth is, I always like to say, if someone were to ask me what do I need, I need a community. I need people who are also Black, females and neurodivergent who can understand where I’m coming from. It’s great, you know, I’m good friends with Grant. It’s great having another Black neurodivergent person to talk to, but the female experience is still different. And so I want to say, find community. And try to build that community. But even when Grant and I were prepping for this podcast, you know, it’s not the easiest thing to try to find Black neurodivergent women, you know? And we’re there. But where are we hiding,you know? How can we work together? So, be yourself. Try not to hate yourself. And embrace who you are. And, you know, find the tools that work for you. But don’t add another layer to your life that you have to mask.

Grant Harris:
Nice one. Thank you. Ian, turn it over to you. I know you're big in curiosity in systems thinking, and innovation in those particular areas. What's one thing in terms of the workplace? One thing that you want to leave with the audience from the, from a curiosity perspective? 

Ian Gibbs-Hall:
I would invite and/or urge to reframe how you look at curiosity. It’s not the way I looked at it for the longest time of like, oh, it’s a kid poking a toad with a stick. Or it’s, you know, putting your finger in a light socket. Or it’s eating dirt. Again, three year old. It’s a doorway. It’s a structural technology. It’s a new way to connect. Like, through being curious, you can uncover things you never imagined before. Quite literally. If, and I think from this we can, it’s hard to give two reframes, but looking at empathy differently too, can enable this. And that empathy isn’t just putting yourself in someone else’s shoes, because that’s taking into assumption that you know what it’s like to wear those shoes. I think the best way we can be empathetic is to ask, what’s it like to wear those shoes? And then be able to create an environment where the person that is being asked can be authentic about what it’s like. They can share, yeah, they smell terrible. Or they feel great. Or, like, they’re itchy. Something. But not just what’s it like to stand there? Like, it’s about listening. And I think the more we look at curiosity like that, it’s a magic key that keeps opening doors. And every door is the window to someone’s mind that we can’t possibly understand unless they choose to tell us. And so all of these, you know, the silver bullets the magic things we’re trying to find to change, to innovate to move forward, whatever. Like, let’s just find a way to be people together a lot more effectively. And by effectively, I mean authentically. Because I think right now what so much of the, I think, stuff that we see and this is a very broad. When I say stuff, I mean when you turn on your phone and see everybody’s fighting for some reason. And no one’s happy. And things aren’t working. And all of that. Like, what if we started asking what if more? And what if we looked past, you know, neurodiversity as being something that needs to be fixed and instead see it as oh, the systems that we have, the air that we’re used to breathing, the water that we’re used to swimming in, metaphorically, or literally, I’m not quite sure, has convinced us that conformity is equal to familiarity and familiarity is just being a part of survival loops and processes that we don’t know where they began. It’s taking that mask off to discover something about ourselves. We can only do that if we ask questions and feel safe enough  to do so together.

Grant Harris:
Yeah. Thank you for that. You mentioned something about safety. And I'll leave my last comment based off of yours. This is a new concept, that I've been introduced to. And I'm on a journey of learning. Of moving from safe places to safe people. Because we have a place and two people are there. This place is a box. And you label that place behind that door: this space is safe. But if an unsafe, harmful person enters that space, then it’s no longer safe. However, no matter how many safe people happen to be in a box. However, if you make safe people, like Natasha, like Ian and like me, it doesn't matter wherever we go inside that box, behind that door, under the fence, it doesn't matter where we go. We carry the safe place with us, because we're safe people. Unless and until an unsafe person encounters us or we encounter them, and then thereby we can remove ourselves from that and go somewhere else and still be safe. So, it's a concept that was recently introduced to me by some of my Black female or woman identifying colleagues, Natasha, who I need to introduce you to. Because I went on a search and I said, and Natasha can't be the only one. She can't be the only one in isolation. I’ve felt in isolation before. It's rare to find Black men who are out loud and proud about having these conversations. It’s even more rare to find Black women. But Natasha would be happy to hear I’ve found a few. So I'm going to make those introductions. But they introduced me to this type of concept and different way of thinking from a neurodivergent perspective. So this conversation has been awesome. I appreciate all of you. And in closing, I would like to say that none of these conversations and none of these perspectives and anything that you all have experienced in life is a mistake. You aren’t exceptions. This is the norm of how we think and feel and these types of conversations because of everything that's around us. Like Ian said, swimming in that water. I'm not the best swimmer, but I get it metaphorically. So to the audience out there, if you heard something today that shifted how you think, share it and click on it. Better yet, ask a person of color you know or ask a person of color you don’t know about their experience of being seen and/or unseen or understood and/or misunderstood and just missed. So here again, we're not changing minds. We're changing the structures of those minds. And real inclusion means rethinking what we've accepted as quote unquote “normal.” Rebuilding that with equity at the center. So I say to you, audience, thank you for joining us today. Thank you for allowing me to be the host and to take over the podcast. There will be a future guest. There will be a Part Two. We’re working on that as we speak.So keep questioning, keep learning, keep showing up, keep changing. And as I like to say, move beyond compliance to community. So visit changingmindsandlives.org to learn more. And until next time. Grant Harris, I’ve been your host. Thanks for listening. Natasha, thank you. Ian, thank you. Very much looking forward to the next.