CMCL - When HR Loses Its Way: DEI, SHRM, and the Future of Work with Tara Turk-Haynes

Julie Sowash
Welcome to Changing Minds and Changing Lives the podcast where we celebrate the innovators and changemakers transforming how we work, how we lead, and how we connect on a human level. I am, as always, your humble host Julie Sowash, CEO of Catch 22 Group and founder and strategic advisor to Disability Solutions. Today we have quite a treat for you. Someone I’ve been trying to get on the podcast for quite some time. Joining us today is Tara Turk-Haynes, strategist, storyteller, equity activator and talent leader. Tara is one of those leaders who bring strategy and heart to the world of work, which we massively need. She is a founding member of Hacking HR and a member of Harvard Business Review, which I am a big reader of. She’s at the forefront of reimagining modern workplaces, blending, one thing that I love, data, creativity and inclusion to turn good intentions into actual sustainable results. 

Tara Turk-Haynes
Mmm-hmm.

Julie Sowash
Tara's been featured in Fast Company, Redefining HR, and on stages like Culture First and where I got to see her just over the last couple weeks at breakfast in the United States. And I'm so excited to welcome her. We’re gonna talk today about some of the ongoing controversy with SHRM and their choice to move away from DEI, and the controversy around their keynote speakers at 2025 SHRM Blueprint Conference. And to wrap it up, I think we’re gonna try to, we may not have time, move into how SHRM, as they move away from DEI, how that is gonna further impact AI bias. And, as I always like to wrap up what you all can do about it. So after that very lengthy introduction, which I still didn’t do her justice on, welcome to Changing Minds, Changing Lives. 

Tara Turk-Haynes
Oh, thank you so much. I'm super excited. I’ve been super excited about this conversation. So, yeah. Thank you for having me in that gorgeous, like, introduction. I'm just gonna record it. And just like play it. [laughs] Any introductions I need. [laughs]

Julie Sowash
Well, thank you. I’ll take that. So, let’s talk about you first.

Tara Turk-Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
Ok, so I know you. I’ve been following your work for several years, But tell our listeners about you, how you got involved in HR and TA strategy and kind of some of those tangibles about how it's helped you guide companies through to build strategies that are inclusive of DEI and have that DEI lens as a focal point.

Tara Turk-Haynes
Yeah. So I'm a first generation college graduate and first generation corporate worker. I, you know, when I graduated from college, my [laughs] I went to get a theater degree as a master’s degree. And my parents were like, amazing. What are you gonna do with that? Because they had, you know, they were. My dad worked on the line for 40 years at Ford before he passed away. My mom has always worked in clerical, and really kind of never advanced further in that. So you know, I’m their hopes and dreams. I’m supposed to continue on. And, you know, as a playwright, which I, you know, am and claim, I was like, I can’t be an artist and make a living. So I started off like most people and doing administrative work, temping .And then, most of my career, at the beginning, was executive assistant, luckily to C-suite executives, which allowed me to see the business from a really interesting perspective. I think is a lot of times people think administrative assistants are invisible. And they treat people that way. And so your true  personality comes out as a work, you know, as a person in the company, how you treat administrative assistants. And so, but it allowed me to learn about the business, learn about, you know, personalities, how to navigate. I just did a post on LinkedIn about all the jobs that have helped me get to where I am, and it was, like, definitely one of them, along with babysitter. But I mean, [laughs] but it definitely allows you to get an almost like an MBA for free, right, when you’re an assistant. And so I never knock those jobs. And I was lucky enough to have a boss, chief people officer of Ticketmaster at the time, Beverly Carmichael, who had come from Southwest. She saw something in me. It was basically like, I think you’d be really great talent acquisition. And I was like, ok, you know, what is that? And she’s like, you’re just, you're good with people. You know how to talk to people. You have a good, you know, all of these different sort of skills that we kind of take for granted as people. Like, when we talk about transferable skills, we, you know, she embodied exactly what we think when we say a leader should be able to recognize internal mobility and advocate for others. So I started doing talent acquisition from a corporate level. And that began my career as a people person. I, you know, worked in startups. I have worked, you know, mid-size public companies. So most of my focus has been, you know, talent acquisition in terms of, like, access for people who sometimes get often ignored. Because when I started temping, I had an agency recruiter when I had dreadlocks tell me I need to comb my hair out if I wanted a really professional job. And I vowed at that point to never, ever, ever make anyone feel like they don’t belong. It’s really about, like, what can you contribute? And I’m always interested in sort of I hated the power dynamics of companies just being like, we get to tell you what to do and how to show up here. This is a mutual transactional relationship we have, right? You’re hiring me because I’m really good at what I do and I'm here because you should be looking out for the business so we can all work together. And I've always been very passionate about that. And that's been sort of my focus when I think about talent acquisition. And so, at some point in 2020, the company I was working for basically was like, you know, after this George Floyd murder, what are we doing? Are we being equitable? Most companies the same. Everyone had an awakening because we're, you know, pandemic. We're at home, you know, questioning our lives, everything, you know, like, what are we doing? And so I got to implement a strategy that really, truly for me. And it was a work in progress. And it was not perfect. But how do I truly make sure people feel like they can be successful, no matter what their background is in this company, from the time they apply until the time they leave. And so that was my point of view when I was VP of DE&I and Talent Acquisition at Leaf Group is how can I make sure people are showing up and we have psychological safety? It really resulted in us having, like, the highest engagement score in the company. We kept people together during the pandemic. All of our events were very well attended. We, I was able to bring people like Kat Kibbin in and talk and, like, it was just, you know, Dr. William Jelani Cobb from MSNBC who is a good friend of mine. We, I brought people together to have conversations. And then that reflected in the workplace. So then we could actually improve the workplace. And how I use data basically is like measuring everything. I honestly got to know that data could be  the best storyteller that you have. I feel like people walk into a company and they think their feelings are facts, right? I feel like our company is disengaged. Your feeling is so biased. What are you using to actually measure that? Why do you need to measure that? Because we spend time, money and resource on feelings is a poor business strategy. I want to be able to put something into something that allows us to see what our ROI is. So we can't ignore data. We can't ignore that kind of strategy. And that's why I believe that people strategy is so very important to business strategies. And that's why, you know, I started my company. It’s been really great. I've been working with people across many different industries. It's a learning lesson for me across the board. No one size fits all. But, you know, it's been a great journey for me and I’m really grateful to be on it. 

Julie Sowash
Yeah, that’s amazing. And I just, like, want to call out one thing. Just because I've been having this conversation a lot and I'm hearing it a lot from younger Gen Z, you know, workers as they're coming in, is that where you started

Tara Turk-Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
is not where you’re finishing.

Tara Turk-Haynes
Right.

Julie Sowash
And as I remember feeling the same way when I was, you know, 25, like, hey, I’m not a VP yet. Why is this? You know, I've failed at life. I must, might as well just pack it up. But taking away all of the things or all of these lessons in your journey make you better at your job now. It makes you successful as your own company, your own entity. And I think that’s just such an important thing for all of us to take away. But that it really is that journey. And I appreciate you saying that mostly because it's on my heart, because I’ve got three Gen Zs at home. But, you know, but I think for our community, too, as you're thinking about entering the workforce, reentering the workforce,know that there's something unique that you should be taking away from your
current job

Tara Turk-Haynes
Yes.

Julie Sowash
that's gonna apply as your career grows. So thank you for that. And thanks for, like, the detail.  I didn’t know about your Ticketmaster background.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah!

Julie Sowash
So I mean, that’s so great to like, again, when we’re talking about modeling behaviors, pulling in your talent that, you know, or filing, listening, setting schedules, you know, learning about budgets, doing all of this incredible work that never really gets recognized. And that's such a skill in leadership. 

Tara Turk Haynes
It really is. And I love what you said about your journey. And I sometimes tell people, you know, I do some coaching not a lot of it, usually for, you know, really special cases. But I tell people to think of it as when you're traveling, right? If I'm gonna go to a country, I want to know, you know, what experiences do I want to have? What food do I want to know about? What people do I  want to know about? Your jobs are almost like that, right? You're experiencing something to take on to the next adventure that you have. And so you, you know, gone are the days where, you know, my parents are were boomers and, like,  you know, like I said, my dad was at Ford for 40 years. I think it was his only job. Like, that absolutely, absolutely never happens anymore. So, where you think, like, how come I haven't reached this opportunity yet? That might not be the place for you to reach that opportunity. And that's fine. You just need to take out something that really is valuable for you so you can bring it to the next position.

Julie Sowash
Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. So.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yes.

Julie Sowash
Now let’s talk about  the controversy of the day. Not that there's not a bazillion we could talk about. But I wanna talk about what's happening at SHRM right now. And as I mentioned before we were recording, you know, just doing our little, our prep session.Because we've got a really diverse audience, there may be some of our listeners who don’t know what SHRM is

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
and don't know why it's important as an entity for not just getting a job, but for understanding how underrepresented communities are moving through talent acquisition and HR. So can you give us like the, I don't know, however long you want to take, overview of SHRM and why they’re important to job seekers?

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah. So SHRM’s the Society for Human Resources Management. And for many years, they have been the epitome, right, organization representing human resource professionals. With a little bit of marketing, a lot of advocacy, a lot of lobbying, right? Because they also represent HR professionals in a, you know, in front of governments, which is, there is no other HR organization that does that, which is huge. They, you know, when business leaders do not know if somebody is going to be good at the HR leader or HR job that they post, maybe they do it once they have one HR person or whatever. Previously, if somebody had those certifications that SHRM offered that told that business leader, ok, I’ve got somebody who knows exactly what they’re doing. It's just like CPA or any kind of thing like that, right? The problem, right, that we now have is that there’s a monopoly. They have a monopoly on representing HR professionals. And their values are starting to slowly misalign with a lot of members of the community. Now that we have Johnny Taylor as the head of SHRM, who’s been there for a few years at this point, they have, it seems as though they have bended the knee towards whatever administration is in office at that moment and taken on the perspectives of that administration. And currently, this current one that we have is not very friendly towards the LGBTQ community, the trans community, anyone who is not, you know, Black women, or, you know, Black men for that matter. They have no interest in sort of dealing with any kind of the socioeconomic identities, 40+ of them, that we all can have, right? There’s 40+ of them. And so, just because and I think when people talk about DE&I, since I’ve overseen it, the thing that I always hear is, people think it’s just race and it’s just gender and maybe your sexuality. We are talking ageism. We're talking about veterans. We are talking about English as a first, second language. We're talking about socioeconomic. Like, how did you grow up? Poor, rich? All of these different things make up who you are as an individual. And that's really incredibly important if you are an HR professional within the workplace to acknowledge that because your workplace is made up of those people. So SHRM has decided to remove, you know, the diversity and equity piece. Equity is so important, because equity is not about, like. Diversity is like how many different people we have, right? Equity is are we all having the same experience together, you know, no matter what our background is? So for an HR organization to say we don't want to deal with equity is a problem, right? Because that means people in the workplace, we don't care if you are a veteran’s wife, we don't care if you're having the same experience as, you know, so-and-so who graduated from an Ivy League school. Because though there may be inequities in how you’ve gotten a job, how you're treated, we as an HR organization are not going to deal with that. And that is a huge problem because it’s not gonna go away. It's just that you don’t wanna talk about it. So, you know, now we're in this place where SHRM has become, you know, the de facto. If business leaders see these certifications, they're just like, this is a great HR person and it's not true. There are a lot of people who great on the job experience. You could be an HR professional for 20 years and never get a SHRM certification and probably know a ton more than that person. How to be, on the job experience is really important. Secondly, who else is 
going to advocate for us in front of government agencies, right? So if we're talking about trans rights, if we’re talking about, you know, the 300+ Black women who’ve been, were pushed out of the workplace since, you know, this administration has come in, who’s advocating for us? This organization has decided not to. So that’s a problem, right? Because there is no other organization.And how do we, and I think that's what have been on my mind is, like, how do we bring light to that? One of the things I've been asking is business leaders to stop putting SHRM certifications on their job descriptions for HR professionals. That doesn't necessarily mean that someone has the experience that you're looking for. I'd rather you be a lot more specific about, like, what is it you're actually looking for? Don't blanket it under a SHRM certification. Also, they have amazing local chapters who are at odds with the national organization. And how do we best support those local chapters who really believe in all of these advocacy rights and everything? So that their voices are heard? So there's a lot of different conversations we should be having, but we're at a crossroads, right? So who's gonna represent us in the way that allows us all to have our voice equally heard?

Julie Sowash
Yeah I think that is such a good and robust explanation of the power that SHRM carries. And I, you know, I remember when I first kind of got into this work more than a decade ago now, thinking, oh, I'm not an HR person. I'm a disability consultant. I’m a tech person. I'm a process person. I’m a compliance person. But I probably should get my SHRM certification so people take me seriously.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
And there's such an air of, it's very, what's the word I'm looking for? It feels like such a, like, if you’re not a member, it's very elitist. Like, we don’t want you if you're not a member. We don't take you as seriously if you don't have that certification. And I'm not, like, dissing certifications. I think that having some sort of demonstration of how we do the work is not a bad thing to have. But as I've sort of watched the organization evolve over the last, let's say, 5-6 years, I've become quite concerned. And I don’t think this is controversial. I don't really care cuz I just sort of say what I think. But under Johnny C. Taylor’s leadership, what I’ve seen, I would say even at a broader level or a higher level than just moving away from DEI, is that they've, that the tone is almost anti-worker.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
And the couple of times that I've been at an event where I’ve been able to sit in and hear Mr. Taylor speak, I, that was my takeaway.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
Is people don’t wanna show up for work. People don't wanna do this. People want the, you know, laborers to represent them. They want to get paid more. They don't deserve that.

Tara Turk Haynes
Mmm-hmm.

Julie Sowash
And we're all in human resources.

Tara Turk Haynes
Right.

Julie Sowash
And so to have, basically, the largest advocacy and education organization in the world, probably, I mean, at least, in the country, but probably in the world,

Tara Turk Haynes
Yep.

Julie Sowash
educating and reinforcing the lack of value that the employee brings to the company is

Tara Turk Haynes
a problem.

Julie Sowash
a problem.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
Yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

Tara Turk Haynes
And it’s interesting because it's so ingrained. They're so dug in based on prior reputations about what they do that some companies only fund their HR professionals to go to a SHRM certification the once a year. They won't even pay for HR people to go to other conferences that probably have a lot more ROI than SHRM. And that's a huge problem too. So you're saying the only thing you're gonna pay for is that person to gather with other people under a environment, like you said, that is so anti-worker. And that's the reason why our voices are really important, is because we need to let a lot of the business leaders know that that’s not the way we want to be represented. And giving more power to local chapters, allowing other certification or conferences to be able to get, you know, be on the docket for you to get reimbursed or get more professional development in conferences that really will give you actually what you need to be a better HR professional. We have to stop saying that SHRM’s, you know, their PR’s, like, it's the best and the most elite. And you're right. A lot of, and I know, because the SHRM, I, listen. The SHRM test is not easy. I know this for a fact. But it's not a reason for you to then treat other people as though if they don't have a certification, that they don’t belong. Because we are all in human resources and we really need to stick together and adjust the problems of our actual people within the organization, right? And be equipped to do that.

Julie Sowash
Yeah, no. And I think that’s  such a great point. And I do also appreciate you calling out the importance of the local chapters, because you're 100% right. I've talked to local SHRM leaders who are not aligned with where national is going. And let’s be honest, like, like politics, we talk about what happens at the federal level.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
And that's critically important. But so much of the good work, the critical work gets done locally.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
And so kudos to those SHRM leaders that are doing the work and really striving to keep or to get SHRM inclusive and engaged and human first. And so you mentioned just a little bit, when you were giving your overview. So several years ago, I think it was two years ago, maybe three, SHRM decided to move from DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion and to go to I and D. So inclusion and diversity.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
And it was such an odd move,

Tara Turk Haynes
Mmm-hmm.

Julie Sowash
in terms of, like, where did this come from? Why did they make this decision? Who were they trying to please with this move? And it just felt so out of the blue to me and not, not aligned with anything that we were seeing at the moment. Did you have the same reaction or is there something I missed?

Tara Turk Haynes
I was not surprised, because I believe that the organization, again, models the behavior of the administration. And as soon as the election was over, I knew that there would be a lot of companies that were going to transition. The companies that were doing it because it was performative were gonna remove DEI with the quickness. Like, literally just the I don’t want it. The companies that didn’t have the resources to fight the administration, because the administration has definitely put a war on DE&I, because they’re weaponized what diversity, equity and inclusion means and given misinformation on those definitions and people have ran with that. They don’t want, you know, I’mma use slang: they don’t want that smoke. So they’re just trying to, like, I don’t wanna use my legal team and all of my company’s resources to fight this thing. So either I’m gonna go underground or I’m gonna remove it completely. We’re just gonna do the work. And listen, I don’t fault any of them. I tell some of my clients who do this work, I don't need you to do a press release about how great you are when it comes to advocating for people across the board when we’re talking about diversity, equity and inclusion. I want you to just do the work. I don’t care if you get acknowledged for it. But, you know, the rumor being that Johnny Taylor wanted a position in this, you know, the cabinet of this administration and doing whatever he could as a leader of this HR organization to show that he could be that was not surprising to me. I do feel like that was a move towards pleasing, you know, the government that they show up in front of and repeat, you know, inaccurately the current HR environment, which really bothers me as well. So what they said was they are folding equity into DI, which is impossible because they all kind of three exist separately. They all have separate functions. Diversity is one thing. Equity and inclusion is another thing. And equity is the one thing that actually moves the needle for people. It makes sure your pay is equitable, right? It makes sure your performance reviews, how your boss treats you. Equity is the part that actually allows you to show up within the organization and make you feel like, ok, we’re on some level of a playing field here. Inclusion is how you feel about that, right? Diversity is basically how many people can show up and say the same thing. So to remove the piecethat actually moves the needle, was not surprising to me.

Julie Sowash
Yeah. And I'm so glad you said that, because I had forgotten about the trying to get in the cabinet.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
You're totally right. I remember that. And, you know, and that’s a representation of what's best for him, not what's best for

Tara Turk Haynes
Exactly.

Julie Sowash
the organization. Ok, so as we’re recording this, it's October 27th tomorrow, depending on when you’re listening to this. October 28th, 2025 SHRM is holding a conference called SHRM Blueprint. And SHRM Blueprint I think is new. It's not one I had heard of before.

Tara Turk Haynes
Same.

Julie Sowash
But it's kind of like their new DEI, SHRM, you know, inclusion, I guess, show. And to kick off this incredible new way of looking at DEI, Johnny C. Taylor has invited two incredibly controversial individuals to be the keynote for the event. And that will happen on October 28th in the morning. So if you’re listening to this after, we probably have some more strong opinions about it than we do now. And that’s gonna be saying something. So tomorrow morning, Robby Starbuck and Van Jones are going to be joining a moderated conversation with SHRM CEO Johnny C. Taylor to talk about how to engage everyone, how to hear others’ thoughts and be open to those as part of our I and D programs. And so let’s talk about first Van Jones. So I know Van Jones from my days of watching CNN when he was a Democratic strategist and didn’t always agree with things that Van had to say, but didn’t really, in that time period, find him to be very controversial. Now, that has changed, or there are things that I didn’t know about. And so I want  to start with, and again, to ensure that we are not just favoring one side versus the other, but to say that both of these gentlemen have pasts and comments that are concerning.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
What does Van bring to the table and what are some of, if you were picking a SHRM speaker, what caveats would you say?  Maybe Van’s not the right person to be having this conversation with.

Tara Turk Haynes
So historically, and I was thinking about this before our conversation, Van and Johnny Taylor, to me, are similar in that their backgrounds, they're like chameleons. Their backgrounds are going to match the environment that they’re in, right? Van, you know, started off really strong. Community organizer, you know, was in Barack Obama’s cabinet, you know, has some really esteemed, you know, organizing, organizations, the Ella Baker Foundation, Color of Change. Like, he’s worked in some really incredible places. And that transition to media pundit or media personality, I think, is where the transition kind of, became perplexing in that as soon as you get on television, you know, I have friends who are on these political shows, and your point of views has to be very strong. And the only way you get, keep getting booked is if you can say something that lands, that’s very strong. Sometimes they don’t always agree with it, right? We can look at some of these talking head shows. I wish we would get back to reporting journalism. But that’s another show altogether. Right now we’re just listening to a lot of people have a lot of opinions about different things, but you have to stand out in that group. And I think Van has done whatever he can to be able to stand out in that group, including saying things that are incredibly polarizing at some point. I will say for a lot of the members of the Black community that I belong to, they do not necessarily see him as a representative of who we are.  He is wishy-washy at times. I remember, you know, when Trump got elected, he went full throttle in saying that was a  very presidential, you know. [laughs]

Julie Sowash
I remember that.

Tara Turk Haynes
You know, like, we were just like, excuse me? Like, did we all listen to the same thing? Whether you agree or not, but like, the switch was so quick that we were like, are you, what are you actually listening to? And are you placating to be able to stay relevant, right? Most recently, has had some really a huge controversy about the Gazan children image, starving Gazan children image. And saying it was misinformation that benefited other, you know, countries. And really it was on Bill Maher and he got attacked for it. Like, he literally was just like the you cannot, how can you fall for these kinds of things when you have such a prestigious background, as someone like Ella Baker, who was like pivotal to the Black community in terms of organization, in your bio, how are you coming on television and saying something so incredibly wrong and misinformed? So it’s like, it’s slippery. He’s, it’s untrustworthy, the voice that we’re using. And I’m, and it’s, I’m not surprised because what we’re doing is we’re, they’re presenting a conversation with people who don't necessarily have very strong differing opinions or views, right? Like, if I can't trust what Van is ascertaining, Robby Starbuck is not gonna be somebody that, like, I will ever agree with as well. And Johnny Taylor, again, similarities in Van Jones’s background, right? Johnny Taylor, you know, candidly, was the head of HR when I was at Ticketmaster because IAC owned Ticketmaster. So I’ve interacted with Johnny. Johnny was an amazing person back then. Definitely advocated for people. So there again, has been this transition that’s different, right? This is not the person, I feel like, that started off. And now we’re in this other place. And so we're having a conversation with three people who I think are not gonna have very strongly different pieces of information, right? I don’t think and there’s there isn’t one person who’s going to say, you’re wrong, Robby Starbuck. We can talk a little bit about who Robby Starbuck is at some point. And I can't believe that you're saying these horrific things about, you know, these communities that we all have friends and loved ones who belong to, especially when we’re talking about the workplace. There isn’t gonna be somebody on that stage who’s gonna say, you can’t say that. That’s ridiculous. And that’s what worries me.

Julie Sowash
So I think that is such a, I just want to stop and capture that for a minute. Because what you’ve said, I think, is if I could pick the number one problem.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
And I'm sort of talking off the top of my head, so bear with me, guys. Is that It's, it's the chameleon. It is the weakness of trying to stay relevant instead of living by what your

Tara Turk Haynes
Yes.

Julie Sowash
what your values were at least we think were at one point, right? And maybe it’s always been the chameleon and it's always gone with the times. But as I'm looking at, you know, frankly, companies we've worked with for a long time, companies I’ve respected, companies that I know were committed to doing the work, just walk away from it. And that to me, that is the biggest, the biggest insult.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
the biggest, you know, kind of slap to the face of people who are in underrepresented communities and to workers in general, is that this wishy-washy, we just go with it. And people like Robby Starbuck, they are who they are.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
They’re unapologetically who they are.

Tara Turk Haynes
- Yeah.

Julie Sowash
And when you have someone who will live and die on the hill that they believe in, whether it's right or wrong,

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
those people move others.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
And when we have leaders who are just willing to go with the tide,

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
you know, then people get tired of hearing it. People don’t want to be a part of an organization. They don't want to be part of a movement that is not based on a firm foundation of this is what we are, and this is what we believe.

Tara Turk Haynes
Mission and values are incredibly important. And I think we should get into who Robby Starbuck is for those who don’t know. It’s like, literally was a video producer/director whose child came home and talked about the lesson that they learned and how it was about, I believe it was LGBTQ in nature. And was so enraged that his child was learning about people who have a difference in the background and so offended that he decided to devote his entire professional career and personal, by going after companies who had DEI programs. He has no experience, by the way, in any of these programs. He was a, like I said, a video producer and director. And just researched, you know, quarterly annual reports. Any company who was reporting on any kind of measurement when it came to data and demographics, specifically those who had LGBTQ+ community programs for their workers there so that they felt seen, secure, you know, psychologically safe. Was outraged and just kept building a social media audience that allowed him to go after them with a vengeance. We can say that some companies did not bend the knee. They will still he, you know, he can be an activist in his own mind. But I don't know if that's the word that I would use. And because the sentiment of his target is shared by this administration, he's gotten a lift, right? So that there is no government organization that's going to say, you've got to stop this because you are discriminating against other people, right?

Julie Sowash
Yep.

Tara Turk Haynes
That barrier has been removed because he has shared sentiment. So even though he does not belong to the LGBTQ community, he has nothing to do with it,  he just doesn’t want that kind of awareness to be in a workplace, because that's just not what he wants. And so and he think and there are a lot of other people he thinks who are who feel the same way. So again, nothing to do with you. You can't let people live their lives, be, have their beautifully diverse backgrounds, show up at work so they can contribute to their success in the best way possible, let companies know that these people are welcome. You are going to target those specific companies and say really heinous and horrendous things on social media. If you want to go to his social media,you can. I blocked him because it, protecting my nervous system. I don't need to see that. So to have someone share that stage. I do think the interesting thing is like a lot of people have been talking about how awful SHRM has been since, you know, for a few years now. But this recent conversation has awakened some people, I think, who did not, weren't aware before, right? I've seen people left and right commenting on LinkedIn about how they’re canceling their SHRM memberships because this is just too far. Because the world is changing. We all have somebody in our lives that we love dearly who belongs to this community and other communities because we know we only, we don’t target just one. We target other ones, right? When we have fear, fear-based racism, you know, misogyny, homophobia, it’s always somebody else is always gonna be the target. We have people that we love and protect viciously. And so this has to be a line in the sand for a lot of people. And I've seen them say, like, this is a bridge too far. This is it. I can't do this. 

Julie Sowash
I think that there’s so much to unpack. We could probably just do an entire conversation on this. But last year, so just prior to the election, I did a webinar that talked about, basically, kind of what are three kind of barriers or impediments that we’re gonna see in 2025. If the administration changed over to what it is now. And one of the first pieces is the stick, right? So we’ve lost affirmative action. We have taken the teeth out of Section 503, out of 4212. We have lost the agency

Tara Turk Haynes
Yes.

Julie Sowash
in all but name

Tara Turk Haynes
Mmm-hmm.

Julie Sowash
that actually does the work of making sure that proactively companies are engaging talent with a variety of backgrounds

Tara Turk Haynes
Mmm-hmm.

Julie Sowash
to get an equitable hiring process that allows companies to capture people that they otherwise wouldn't.

Tara Turk Haynes
Mmm-hmm.

Julie Sowash
And then, the second one is really where Robby Starbuck came in, is the, is the PR, right? So it's the voice of it. And I love what you said because, you know, oftentimes when I talk to the team at DS, I'm like, we just need to put our head down and do the work. The results speak for themselves.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
And so we're now at this point where we are losing marketing’s interest in it, right? We're losing that second pillar of like, well, if I can't put out a press release for it, what is really the point of doing it kind of thing.

Tara Turk Haynes
Right.

Julie Sowash
And Robby Starbuck, specifically, I thought it was really interesting, targeted late last year brands that are male-dominated type of brands, like a Harley Davidson, like Caterpillar, John Deere, those masculine. 

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
If you could see me,

Julie Sowash
I'm air quoting everything I'm saying here. Those masculine brands because he felt that it was a disservice to men

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah. 

Julie Sowash
for those brands to engage in supporting their LGBTQ workforce, their Black workforce, their disabled workforce. And I don't know where we lose in the conversation about young white men that or young men, period, is that they’re also disabled. They're also people of color. They're also LGBTQ individuals. And ignoring that

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
doesn’t make a man or a brand more masculine.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah. 

Julie Sowash
And that, to me, I mean, I’ve read some of his tweets this morning about the director of the Louvre and it’s just nonsense.

Tara Turk Haynes
Nonsense.

Julie Sowash
But what is your take if you're having these conversations, what is your take on how to have, I don't want to say productive if you can't have a productive conversation with someone like him, but how do you educate the people that you're working with about how to help them understand, from both a brand and a workforce perspective, that being inclusive of others is not being uninclusive of men.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah. So a couple things. Like I, so first off, I'll say I would never have a conversation with Robby Starbuck because he’s committed to, he’s dug deep. And I think where a lot of us have wasted very valuable time, energy, resource, resilience and hope is trying to convince people who are very much committed to not engaging in any kind of conversation about other people’s humanity. If I have to convince you of other people’s humanity, I’m wasting my time. This is a lost cause. I have conversations with people who are genuinely curious about how to be better and what their lived experience has not taught them that they would love to know about other people. But one of the things I do is in my business, is, I say this makes complete business sense for you. The census is changing. Just because you don’t want to talk about how intersectional other people are. Intersectional, for those of you who don’t know, that means you have multiple of these social identities we talked about. Just like you just said, Julie, which is, you know, you can be a man and be part of the LGBT community and be a veteran, right? And be English as a second language and not come from a lot of money. So that's four different things, right? You can be multiple things we are talking about when we talk about DEI, right? Multiple things. To create a monolith, an idea of what just one person looks like is doing a disservice and your business is gonna falter. You will not be able. If you feel like you can have a homogenous business, I tell people, by all means go for it. You don’t wan tto change. You don’t want other customers or future employees to be able to see themselves thriving, engaging with your business? By all means, do whatever you think is best. If you are the kind of person who is looking 10, 15, 20 years down the line about how my business can still exist, then you better start thinking about how to cater to other people who don’t necessarily just look like you immediately, right? Because these younger generations that are entering the workforce do not have the same patience, I think, that other generations who have been in the workforce for a long time. We are, you know, I'm part of young Gen X. I am literally just like, you know, still unlearning some really bad habits that the Boomers, you know, that learned who also learned from other generations. We were not taught that we had power. The younger generations who are coming into the workplace definitely are carving out their own power. They’re not gonna stand for a lot of this stuff. And I’m not saying that they all believe, you know, very much into DEI, diversity, whatever. But I am saying a lot of them are recognizing all of the different parts of who they are of themselves. And they want to go someplace that represents that and allows them to really be successful in an organization. And if you are not that organization, I do not want to hear your think pieces about why it's so hard to find good talent. I just don't wanna do that. So, you know, I'm working with organizations who are like, we’re trying to plan for the future and we're doing that presently. If you're a company that doesn't want to do that, that's fine. You know, one of the, and really quick story. John Deere, which is one of the companies that you mentioned, I had a friend who did a beautiful documentary on the plight of Black farmer, farm workers. And on Black land rights, which have been historical in our country. You know, that basically means, you know, African Americans who had family members in the South who may have had land, whether it's because of, you know, racism or Jim Crow or whatever, not very well documented. How are they able to keep their land rights? A lot of it has been stolen from them. Beautiful documentary. Why? Because their chief diversity officer was a Black man who was going through that very thing with land rights. As soon as this administration came into play, as soon as Robby Starbuck came, that man was fired. That documentary exists. But we are talking about, the beauty is that some of those John Deere customers who are Black farmers saw that John Deere cared about them, that they recognized that they were customers, right? And they could proudly say, I have John Deere. John Deere did something that reflects my identity. Now that’s gone. You might lose an entire swath of customers because you decided to bend the knee, right? That makes terrible business sense to me. 

Julie Sowash
Yeah, and Robby Starbuck really pushes that DEI is not good for ROI.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
And we know that's bullshit.

Tara Turk Haynes
Right.

Julie Sowash
We know that.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yeah.

Julie Sowash
And time and time and time again, the data proves that that story is wrong.

Tara Turk Haynes
Correct.

Julie Sowash
But when he's if we're not using our voices collectively, that's the voice that gets heard. And I think that’s, you know, when we go back to the wishy-washy and all of those things, it's like, facts are facts.

Tara Turk Haynes
Right.

Julie Sowash
And this fact is untrue

Tara Turk Haynes
Right.

Julie Sowash
And this fact is true. And we need leaders who are going to continue to do that. And what Van Jones, presumably, and certainly as demonstrated over time, Johnny C. Taylor, are not going to do, is push back and make that point. And nobody wants to get on board with those guys.

Tara Turk Haynes
No, no, That is exactly the point I was gonna make. There's no reason to think that Van Jones or Johnny C. Taylor are gonna bring up why Black farmers now may not support John Deere anymore, right?

Julie Sowash
Yeah.

Tara Turk Haynes
You know, we’re talking about immigration right now. We're talking about, you know, ICE raids, right? All of these companies who are not doing anything, I mean, living in the present. And we are talking about a conversation where we know three of those individuals are probably not gonna bring up repercussions of the current administration and the current efforts to do a lot of erasure of a workforce that truly is important to the vitality of this country. They're not gonna bring up the important details about this. And so when you talk about using your voice, I know a lot of people are probably out there, like, what can I do? I’m just an individual. Small moments every single day. If you are working at a company and you see that they post an HR job and it says SHRM certified, SHRM certificate required, say something. Tell them, hey, I don't know if you know, but a lot of people are not happy with SHRM as a national organization right now, right? If you're in talent acquisition, you don't have to, you know, shout from the rooftops that you're running an equitable process. You should be doing that anyway. But still continue to do that, right? Seek the humanity in people. If you're in HR still, you know, when there are rough days, right? When the news is really rough and you know that there are people who might be affected by those headlines, can you just say, hey, you know what? If you can, knock off a couple hours early. I know it's been a rough day. Or if you need somebody to talk to or if there’s resources that you need. We really have to get back to connecting to people because things like the SHRM certification and the SHRM Association is not doing a great job for the PR of HR, right? Like, the more HR people talk to each other and pat each other on the back. Job well done. Guarantee you, there’s a lot of employees out there who are still like, I would never trust HR.

Julie Sowash
Yeah. We talk to them every day.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yep. Every single day.Right. Exactly. They and they and I think that that gap needs to shrink in order for us to actually have a collective voice to do something against an organization like SHRM.

Julie Sowash
Yeah, yeah. So I think that is the perfect place to wrap up on. We're gonna have to do AI next time if you'll come back for another session?

Tara Turk Haynes
Love to. Would love to.

Julie Sowash
Wonderful, wonderful. So if you can tell our audience how to get connected with you, where to follow you, all the good things.

Tara Turk Haynes
Yes. My website equityactivations.com. You can contact me through there. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Threads. I am on Instagram and on TikTok.

Julie Sowash
Excellent. Tara, thank you so much for joining us. Guys, this was such a fun episode. We'll have to, I don't know, debrief after everything happens tomorrow and report back after this is published. So thank you again for joining us. Guys, have a wonderful day. Catch up on some back episodes. We've had some great conversations this year. And I will see you next time.

Tara Turk Haynes
Thank you, Julie!